I can see what you are saying, but I think it is a valid avenue to explore, as well as how fast he ramped up, how closely he stacked bricks, primary workouts, speedwork, etc. I don't think it's one specific factor that you could point to and say "AHA! No speed work on Tuesday's is the key! Bungee jump instead!", but rather the structure of how it was done, with many small factors contributing.

John

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You should do some strength training because it is good for you, but it will not likely make you faster. See below:

1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1993 Aug;25(8):952-9. Links
Dry-land resistance training for competitive swimming.
Tanaka H, Costill DL, Thomas R, Fink WJ, Widrick JJ.
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN 47306.
To determine the value of dry-land resistance training on front crawl swimming performance, two groups of 12 intercollegiate male swimmers were equated based upon preswimming performance, swim power values, and stroke specialties. Throughout the 14 wk of their competitive swimming season, both swim training group (SWIM, N = 12) and combined swim and resistance training group (COMBO, N = 12) swam together 6 d a week. In addition, the COMBO engaged in a 8-wk resistance training program 3 d a week. The resistance training was intended to simulate the muscle and swimming actions employed during front crawl swimming. Both COMBO and SWIM had significant (P < 0.05) but similar power gains as measured on the biokinetic swim bench and during a tethered swim over the 14-wk period. No change in distance per stroke was observed throughout the course of this investigation. No significant differences were found between the groups in any of the swim power and swimming performance tests. In this investigation, dry-land resistance training did not improve swimming performance despite the fact that the COMBO was able to increase the resistance used during strength training by 25-35%. The lack of a positive transfer between dry-land strength gains and swimming propulsive force may be due to the specificity of training.

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1998 Sep;38(3):201-7.Correlations between peak power output, muscular strength and cycle time trial performance in triathletes. Bentley DJ, Wilson GJ, Davie AJ, Zhou S.

School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University,
Lismore, NSW, Australia.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the peak power output (Wmax),
peak oxygen uptake (VO2peak), lower limb muscular strength and cycling time (CT)
during a short course triathlon race. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: The study involved a
cross-sectional analysis involving both physiological and biomechanical
variables. SETTING: Testing was performed at the exercise physiology and
biomechanics laboratory, School of Exercise Science and Sport Management,
Southern Cross University, Lismore, Australia. PARTICIPANTS: Ten male
triathletes who had been endurance cycle training for a minimum of 12 months
prior to the commencement of the study. MEASURES: Subjects completed a maximal
incremental cycle test as well as a series of muscular function tests including
a 6-s cycle test, a concentric isoinertial squat jump as well as an isokinetic
leg extension test performed at velocities of 60 degrees (s-1, 120 degrees (s-1
and 180 degrees.s-1. In addition, each subject also participated in a triathlon
race of distance 1.5 km swim, 40 km cycle and 10 km run. RESULTS: A significant
correlation existed between CT and absolute VO2 peak and Wmax. However, no
significant correlations were found between the results of the muscular function
tests and the incremental cycle test as well, as CT during the triathlon race.
CONCLUSIONS: Wmax and WDmax are useful variables in assessing cycle performance in triathletes. However, the importance of muscular strength of the lower limbs may be minimal in overall cycle performance during a short course triathlon
race.


Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Jun;31(6):886-91.The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Bishop D, Jenkins DG, Mackinnon LT, McEniery M, Carey MF.

Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane,
Australia. dbishop@wais.org.au

PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance
training on endurance performance and selected muscle characteristics of female
cyclists. METHODS: Twenty-one endurance-trained, female cyclists, aged 18-42 yr,
were randomly assigned to either a resistance training (RT; N = 14) or a control
group (CON; N = 7). Resistance training (2X x wk(-1)) consisted of five sets to
failure (2-8 RM) of parallel squats for 12 wk. Before and immediately after the
resistance-training period, all subjects completed an incremental cycle test to
allow determination of both their lactate threshold (LT) and peak oxygen
consumption VO2). In addition, endurance performance was assessed by average
power output during a 1-h cycle test (OHT), and leg strength was measured by
recording the subject's one repetition maximum (1 RM) concentric squat. Before
and after the 12-wk training program, resting muscle was sampled by needle
biopsy from m. vastus lateralis and analyzed for fiber type diameter, fiber type
percentage, and the activities of 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase and
phosphofructokinase. RESULTS: After the resistance training program, there was a
significant increase in 1 RM concentric squat strength for RT (35.9%) but not
for CON (3.7%) (P < 0.05). However, there were no significant changes in OHT
performance, LT, VO2, muscle fiber characteristics, or enzyme activities in
either group (P > 0.05). CONCLUSION: The present data suggest that increased leg
strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained,
female cyclists.

Give it a few more years and you will understand. It is one body containing two systems but one set of organs. We're supposed to have a well functioning aerobic and anaerobic system for optimal health.

That's why teenagers generally have much better health than masters athletes and masters athletes are running around to see their anti aging docs because suddenly their T levels are not the same as teenagers. So how do you stay in the optimal health zone?

Edit: Glad to get the controversies off the 007/doping threads. This place needs an outlet for endless disagreements. If we all got a long, then there would be no fun for the lurkers. They need to do the "rubber neck" as they drive by the latest crash/accident on ST.

I don't know, but despite all my aerobic training and zero weight, my last physical was excellent, and my T-level was 950ng/dl.

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But are you 50 or approaching 50?

I'm 42. But it doesn't matter Dev. I was hearing the same stuff when I was 30. Just wait to hit 40, you'll see...And now it's 50. I'm not arguing that we are
aging, I'm arguing that weights, and anaerobic training has much to do with feeling better. You're presenting some N=1 info. Works for you. Great. Would I
recommend it? hmm...unless there are studies (and I haven't looked really) suggesting it does, no I won't.

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Just IMO with no scientific data to back it....

I do believe that SOME strength training, particularly in the "off" season is beneficial, especially as we age and begin to naturally loose some of our muscle mass. I also think (again, can't prove...) that there are likely some benefits in terms of injury prevention by helping strengthen joint complexes, stabilizing muscles, etc. None of this is likely to make you any faster, but if it does help prevent injury, and keeps you in the game, then there's certainly at least an indirect benefit in that. From an overall FITNESS perspective (not race performance, per se) some strength training is probably a good thing.

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Inner Drive Cycling|Fitness Studio
Indoor Cycling|Functional Fitness|Multisport Club & Coaching
http://www.innerdrivestudio.com

And to the OP who thinks that 20-25 reps is anaerobic: wrong. It has a major aerobic component, so the fact that you increased the weight over your gaining period includes improving your aerobic capacity, which likely contributed to your improved power on the bike.
-----------------------------------
Ken L.

Perhaps I should re-state, when you lift for 20 seconds or less (say 20-25 reps) when I said "purely" anaerobic I should have said "mostly" or "primarily" anaerobic when comparing it to an activity which lasts say 1:20.


For most of what we do over 3-6 seconds there is a mix of both systems working, the shorter the maximal effort the more the anaerobic system comes into play. There is also a systemic vs localized anaerobic effect meaning that squats which involve larger muscle groups, create a larger systemic anaerobic condition than say 1 arm bicep curls, but in both conditions the working muscle could be in a "primarily" anaerobic state.


This is why after 1:20 or so my HR goes up to 180 (max bike 192 or so) so in this regard I like these because they apply high degree of both systemic and localized tear down, and hopefully after recovery the largest amount of compensation for my goals.

I believe that I read (But could not tell you where if pinned down) that the muscle mass loss was preventable by almost any weight bearing or otherwise muscle stressing exercise, regardless of type.

I wouldn't mind seeing a study or review or hell, even a poll on the number of injuries per capita in the couch to tri crowd vs. the ones that came to tri from a recent sporting background, whether it was any of the primary disciplines or something other.

In certain cases (dev being an example), weightlifting helps correct deficiencies and/or keeps muscles in balance. This prevents injury for him, so for him, weight lifting is absolutely a benefit to s/b/r because it enables him to do it. If you have something that needs correcting or is otherwise not being addressed by s/b/r, then I'm all for strength training as the means to an end.

If, however, you are an otherwise healthy AGer of any age, then weightlifting *probably* is extraneous and he/she would be better served by more of sport specific. Where many get confused is "But macca/tinley/insert pro of choice does it". Sure, and they are at the pointy end of the stick where more s/b/r probably won't make a difference, and the supplemental strength training might.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Nothing major happens till mid to late 40's so your N=1 example of being studly at 42 is actually N=5 Billion and sure, you can do really well without working on your anaerobic system at all....have a look at most 40-44 Age group podiums and they are not that far off 30-39...

Even in 45-49, the podiums are actually not that far off 30-39....but have a closer look. Almost all the guys in 45-49 winning are actually 45 and 46 year olds....the exceptional cases are 48 and 49. Go to 50-54 and a lot less are keeping up with 30-39.

So you have a while to go till the real aging effects kick in. Heck, I'll be 47 in a few weeks and I barely feel them myself and if it was not for ripping apart and banging up my body in a major accident last year, I'm pretty sure that I'd be close to the range of my all time PB's on the swim and bike. The run is a bit slower due to a few injuries, but even then, I ran my all time half marathon PB at 44 (perhaps a functioning of never racing that distance at 27 but still). Just saying that the aging affects don't kick in early in your 40's. Seriously at 42 you are probably closer to a 20 year old than a 52 year old is to a 47 year old.

You're changing the target of the discussion AND are presenting no data whatsoever. So I'll do as Dan, and will repeat twice, I won't recommend it, even for my older
athletes.

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I'm not asking you to recommend anything to anyone. I'm just saying that you'll get there....eventually when you are 50-54....

You mean older? Yeah I sure hope so. Does that mean I will feel the need for weights and anaerobic training? Absolutely not.

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It's all relative. Some of the times that you posted for your rides would put me in the anaerobic stage :)

Of course, MY t level is only in the 650 range. You stud.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I think you are right about this from a triathlon performance perspective. As you said, no convincing scientific evidence to suggest that it is important for endurance performance, even for older athletes. At 42 though, you should start to consider doing a little bit yourself. It is going to be harder to put on muscle as you get older. I am 3 years older than you and am trying to put on some muscle. It just does not happen that fast any more. This will get worse at 50 and much worse at 60. If I want a shot at carrying around a decent amount of muscle in my 60s, and I do, I know I need to have some success now. I want the added muscle (mostly the added strength) just to be able to live a vigorous, active life. I want to be able to carry suitcases, lift one side of the sofa, go surfing, load my paddleboard on top of my car, simple stuff, late into life. To do that I need to preserve what muscle I have. And I need to add a reasonable amount if I am to preserve as much physical ability as I can late in life. Triathlon alone was not going to give me enough, although it certainly helps.

For the record, in my 20s I was training a lot more. Around 30hrs pls and my T levels were a loooooot lower. As in under 350.

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Lifting furniture or luggage is anaerobic system. Eventually you'll need to work all of that or you'll lose the ability. Its just a matter of when. Don't be so sweeping in your statements that you'll never have a need to work your anaerobic system and train it. At some point you will get to the point that you actually have to train those systems to do simple tasks in life.

Some of us just choose to be proactive about it rather than wait till we can't. I can still play soccer and touch football with teenagers but almost all the parents of the teenagers that I coach cannot (including my wife). No magic there...use it or lose it. It happens to all of us, so what do you do to hold it off?

Your older athletes may not want to play touch football or soccer or tennis or a game of baseball. That's fine for them. Some of us kind of enjoy that (plus we have to shovel snow in Canada anyway....)

Dev

Actually I have a relatively fair amount of muscle mass. A probably way too much on my legs. I'm pretty sure I'd run way better with less.

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My dad does nothing but bowling and ride his bike (~ 150-200 mpw). He can do all the things you describe (With the exception of the paddleboard, I don't think he'd have one), and he's hardly every lifted weights in his life. Unless you count the haying he did on the farm in the summer growing up. N=1 but still...

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

If nothing, we channelled your energy out of the doping threads and into the weight training threads!!! Success!

Cool, you follow your dad's plan. I'll follow mine. I have more confidence in my plan though. I might be silly but I belive that the best way to add strength is to strength train. I have not actually tried to add strength by bowling though. ; )

strength training pro:



strength training con:

You're changing the target again... And keep in mind that I start with far more muscle mass than you scrawny dev ;-)

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I think the title of the thread was "Stength Training Pros and Cons".

So what is the target of this thread? I think it is to discuss both pros and cons.

I think what Mike Prevost said, and what I am saying is that if you want a well functioning anaerobic system, then train it. If you don't want anaerobic capacity that is fine. Just saying that general health involves both and that's why I keep doing a variety of anaerobic exercises.

You may be right about that. Probably not going to lose it any time soon either. I would consider that a good thing but your goals are different than mine. At some point, if you live long enough, you are going to find that a lack of strength is limiting what you can do. You probably have many years left before that happens though.