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Strength Training and TSS
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I read through Triathlon 2.0 regarding strength training and Tss and it was basically saying that it was a guess (perceived effort) or at least that's what I remember.

Lately I have been using my HR monitor and running an "other" workout on the Garmin. The HR and time have been giving me a TSS which seems to be about right, although I have no baseline to measure against. Anyone else doing anything similar or completely different regarding strength training and TSS?

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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As the individual who came up with TSS (the first objective, stress-based way of quantifying training) and the PMC (the first practical alternative to Banister's impulse-response model, which predates the work that Tim Gabbet is publishing by a decade), my advice is:

Don't - just don't.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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I enter it manually in WKO+ but no IF/TSS value. It's only to keep track of how much I do (time wise) but nothing else.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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Like others, I log time and details but no tss.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Welp. I guess that settles that...

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
As the individual who came up with TSS (the first objective, stress-based way of quantifying training) and the PMC (the first practical alternative to Banister's impulse-response model, which predates the work that Tim Gabbet is publishing by a decade), my advice is:

Don't - just don't.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?

When TSB is pretty deep for a few days I'll be feeling some cardio/heart/head fatigue & a more variable amount of muscular fatigue.

Generally I use:
- A combo of bike+run PMC to estimate how trashed my legs are likely to be (muscular fatigue)
- Swim+bike+run PMC to estimate total cardio/head/heart fatigue. (I believe you're not a fan of adding the three)
- An independent PMC for each discipline.

For the muscular fatigue doing a bunch of squats has to have some ramifications, so bike+run+squat PMC? or just eyeball squat TSS/TSB when scheduling bike/run?
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen TSS for weight lifting based on the total weight lifted. Example. If you lift 40Kg and repeat ten times - 400Kg. Add the total of all weight lifted and apply a factor based on your own weight. Can't remember the factor though......

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
As the individual who came up with TSS (the first objective, stress-based way of quantifying training) and the PMC (the first practical alternative to Banister's impulse-response model, which predates the work that Tim Gabbet is publishing by a decade), my advice is:

Don't - just don't.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?

When TSB is pretty deep for a few days I'll be feeling some cardio/heart/head fatigue & a more variable amount of muscular fatigue.

Generally I use:
- A combo of bike+run PMC to estimate how trashed my legs are likely to be (muscular fatigue)
- Swim+bike+run PMC to estimate total cardio/head/heart fatigue. (I believe you're not a fan of adding the three)
- An independent PMC for each discipline.

For the muscular fatigue doing a bunch of squats has to have some ramifications, so bike+run+squat PMC? or just eyeball squat TSS/TSB when scheduling bike/run?

It's always a huge risk to try to interpret the tea leaves of a Dr. Coggan post, but given that he has expressed reservations about "composite" TSS scores, my *guess* here is that there's no reason to estimate a strength training TSS value, because the only possible relevance it might have is to a composite TSS score, which is - according to prior statements by Dr. Coggan - a bad idea.

At some point, when you start getting into "estimates," you're really just replacing TSS with RPE. Now, as I've said before, I don't actually think that's a bad idea. In fact, I'd say it's a good idea. I'm a much bigger fan of RPE than of TSS. And composite RPE actually makes a lot of sense. But the point, of course, is that TSS and RPE are different. And they should remain that way. If you want to use RPE, use RPE. If you want to use TSS, use TSS. But don't try to blend the two.

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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turneej wrote:
I read through Triathlon 2.0 regarding strength training and Tss and it was basically saying that it was a guess (perceived effort) or at least that's what I remember.

Lately I have been using my HR monitor and running an "other" workout on the Garmin. The HR and time have been giving me a TSS which seems to be about right, although I have no baseline to measure against. Anyone else doing anything similar or completely different regarding strength training and TSS?

Mixing apples and oranges. It will not work.

Simplify, Train, Live
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
It's always a huge risk to try to interpret the tea leaves of a Dr. Coggan post, but given that he has expressed reservations about "composite" TSS scores, my *guess* here is that there's no reason to estimate a strength training TSS value, because the only possible relevance it might have is to a composite TSS score, which is - according to prior statements by Dr. Coggan - a bad idea.

Furthermore, tss is a measure of stress caused by cycling training or, at the very least, endurance training. Strength training (without opening a can of worms) doesn't correspond directly to endurance training or fitness and therefore shouldn't be accounted for by a measure of the total endurance training an athlete has been through. Sorta like you wouldn't include stress at work or from a newborn baby when accounting for tss.

*This is not a judgement of whether or not endurance athletes should lift weights, just that the physiological response to a 2 hour bike ride is different than 5 sets of squats.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

It's always a huge risk to try to interpret the tea leaves of a Dr. Coggan post, but given that he has expressed reservations about "composite" TSS scores, my *guess* here is that there's no reason to estimate a strength training TSS value, because the only possible relevance it might have is to a composite TSS score, which is - according to prior statements by Dr. Coggan - a bad idea.


Furthermore, tss is a measure of stress caused by cycling training or, at the very least, endurance training. Strength training (without opening a can of worms) doesn't correspond directly to endurance training or fitness and therefore shouldn't be accounted for by a measure of the total endurance training an athlete has been through. Sorta like you wouldn't include stress at work or from a newborn baby when accounting for tss.

*This is not a judgement of whether or not endurance athletes should lift weights, just that the physiological response to a 2 hour bike ride is different than 5 sets of squats.

Excellent explanation.

But if we were to do TSS with strength training we might as well throw in TSS for just daily life stress as well. After all stress is stress. And we're ignoring about 80-90% of hour daily stress.

Just leave it be to swim, bike, run. Better yet, bike, run.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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CU427 wrote:
Better yet, bike, run.

Better yet, bike.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
At some point, when you start getting into "estimates," you're really just replacing TSS with RPE. Now, as I've said before, I don't actually think that's a bad idea. In fact, I'd say it's a good idea. I'm a much bigger fan of RPE than of TSS. And composite RPE actually makes a lot of sense. But the point, of course, is that TSS and RPE are different. And they should remain that way. If you want to use RPE, use RPE. If you want to use TSS, use TSS. But don't try to blend the two.

Agreed, which is why I have always suggested that triathletes use Foster's session RPE method. It's subjective and output-based instead of objective and input-based, but at least it should be consistently inconsistent across sports.

In any case, I gave up worrying about trying to track training stress/strain over 10 y ago.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

At some point, when you start getting into "estimates," you're really just replacing TSS with RPE.


Agreed, which is why I have always suggested that triathletes use Foster's session RPE method. It's subjective and output-based instead of objective and input-based, but at least it should be consistently inconsistent across sports.

In any case, I gave up worrying about trying to track training stress/strain over 10 y ago.

Sure TSS might not be the most accurate model of stress/strain, but it's removal of perception has to make it a better cornerstone for modeling than RPE.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:
Sure TSS might not be the most accurate model of stress/strain, but it's removal of perception has to make it a better cornerstone for modeling than RPE.

The question is what to do when TSS isn't (can't be) measured.

(BTW, you do know that you're replying to the guy who came up with TSS, right?)
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Are suggesting he shouldn't do strength and conditioning work?

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Are suggesting he shouldn't do strength and conditioning work?

??

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [turneej] [ In reply to ]
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Training Peaks web page indicates:
"Once you start to understand the simple scoring system, you will even be able to assign a daily point score through perceived exertion. Here is an explanation of how TSS works and some tips if you are just getting familiar with TSS:


  • You earn 100 TSS for an all out, 100%, 60-minute workout. Of course most workouts are not completed at 100%, so most workouts will accumulate less than 100 TSS per hour.
  • You can earn more than 100 TSS within a single workout (as long as it is longer than an hour), but never more than 100 TSS per hour.
  • Think of intensity as an RPE value on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the hardest. If you exercised at a level 5 for two hours, then you would accumulate 50 TSS/hour or 100 total points. It wouldn’t matter if you were training for the Tour de France or to simply complete your first triathlon."
I personally find that Strength training adds to the overall fatigue in my week and I can tell the difference between 1 X one hour session or 3 X 1 hour sessions in a week. I think it should be included as part of an overall record of effort. I generally log a TSS of 50 for 1 hour of wt training. It has worked well for me.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Is there any work being done right now to better track the accumulated stress of the combined swim bike run then TSS? I use the TSS score as a rough way to determine my weekly training load. I also use the CTL and accumulated fatigue as ways to decided if I am entering the overtraining zone.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [driver_ian] [ In reply to ]
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driver_ian wrote:
Training Peaks web page indicates:
"Once you start to understand the simple scoring system, you will even be able to assign a daily point score through perceived exertion. Here is an explanation of how TSS works and some tips if you are just getting familiar with TSS:


  • You earn 100 TSS for an all out, 100%, 60-minute workout. Of course most workouts are not completed at 100%, so most workouts will accumulate less than 100 TSS per hour.
  • You can earn more than 100 TSS within a single workout (as long as it is longer than an hour), but never more than 100 TSS per hour.
  • Think of intensity as an RPE value on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the hardest. If you exercised at a level 5 for two hours, then you would accumulate 50 TSS/hour or 100 total points. It wouldn’t matter if you were training for the Tour de France or to simply complete your first triathlon."
I personally find that Strength training adds to the overall fatigue in my week and I can tell the difference between 1 X one hour session or 3 X 1 hour sessions in a week. I think it should be included as part of an overall record of effort. I generally log a TSS of 50 for 1 hour of wt training. It has worked well for me.

The 2nd bullet point is wrong.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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In the past, a solid, experienced coach worked pretty well. I've found HRV monitoring to be a great compliment.

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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
SteveM wrote:
Sure TSS might not be the most accurate model of stress/strain, but it's removal of perception has to make it a better cornerstone for modeling than RPE.

The question is what to do when TSS isn't (can't be) measured.

(BTW, you do know that you're replying to the guy who came up with TSS, right?)

Yep, but what I can't pin down is whether TSS was primarily intended as a measure of muscular or cardio stress/strain.
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:
what I can't pin down is whether TSS was primarily intended as a measure of muscular or cardio stress/strain.

It was developed with primarily muscular metabolic strain in mind (which is why it seems to be a pretty good predictor of glycogen utilization).

Here is the original post (from almost 14 y ago):

http://lists.topica.com/...ort=d&start=9353
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Jan 18, 17 16:58
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Re: Strength Training and TSS [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
pretty good predictor of glycogen utilization).

https://groups.google.com/...vQVznnw/gg_tQH0rhxAJ
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