Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum:

Dec 8, 20 18:07

Post #1 of 76 (6105 views)

I don’t know why I was thinking about this today, but I thought you guys would appreciate it, and it also may bring some more appreciation to the way Slowman runs this place.

About 20 years ago I was a rower just out of college and there was a website almost exactly like Slowtwitch but for rowing. A front page with the best news coverage in the sport and a wildly popular user forum in the “back”. It was THE online resource in rowing. It still exists, sans forum, and is called Row2k.com.

In rowing there is the National Training Center which is the home of the National Team, but actual selection of the boats to go to the Olympics, World Championships, etc. was largely done by trials, with some exceptions (I’m describing the system back then, I know nothing of it now). The rowing clubs often submitted entries to trials, and they often won, usually in the smaller boats. At the time I was rowing at Potomac Boat Club, which was often successful getting crews on the National Team by winning trials.

There was a popular newspaper called Rowing News that did an interview with a National Team coach and he was asked about the women’s lightweight quad he was coaching and another crew in the same event training at Potomac that was challenging them at trials. His response was to say a lot of very derogatory things about the women from Potomac. I don’t remember specifically but it was shockingly bad.

I started a thread on the Row2k thread that just had the quote from the coach and a question about what people think about it. I gave no opinion. And people went off on him big time. It was the most commented on thread that I remember. For days. A well known and loved National Team member came on and begged us to stop, saying the team coaches were unable to do their jobs and prepare the team because of the thread and we were damaging the US’s standing in the rowing world. And shortly after that, the owner of the website made a post about how the forum had gotten out of control and he was shutting the whole thing down. Permanently. 20 years later, as far as I know, he’s never tried starting it up again and all that traffic went to a forum on a once-deserted competitor of his. Then at trials, the crew from Potomac won.

He was good friends with many people in the management/coaching of the national team and I am sure he was getting a ton of pressure. I cannot imagine Slowman making that decision in that situation (or any situation really – he’d find a real solution).

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:15

Post #2 of 76 (6075 views)

not much threat of a forum meltdown here. i'm lucky. you guys are great. well, i have to keep a close eye on you. otherwise...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:23

Post #3 of 76 (6041 views)

Did you row before college? I think Rowing has a huge demographic problem, and also a body of water problem.

In my lifetime the only rower I ever met in person was a cousin that was a non athlete that walked onto the NCAA team at UC Davis. She made it on the team in part because there weren't even try outs at the time. Women's crew being an NCAA sport boggles my mind for most schools. I seriously don't know anyone that rows.

Was rowing ever a big thing here?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:24

Post #4 of 76 (6038 views)

I was not of the opinion that the forum members did anything wrong. But I was 22 at the time and most forum members were probably 18-28 so it was a bit of a different crowd...

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:27

Post #5 of 76 (6028 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

Did you row before college? I think Rowing has a huge demographic problem, and also a body of water problem.

In my lifetime the only rower I ever met in person was a cousin that was a non athlete that walked onto the NCAA team at UC Davis. She made it on the team in part because there weren't even try outs at the time. Women's crew being an NCAA sport boggles my mind for most schools. I seriously don't know anyone that rows.

Was rowing ever a big thing here?

Rowing is definitely white and rich but so is triathlon. Rowing became an NCAA sport because it was easy to recruit 50 girls and spend a ton of money on it to offset football numbers and meet title IX requirements. That's why there is no men's rowing in NCAA.

I did not row before college. Many collegiate teams let basically anyone walk on and if you are still around 6 months later you probably belong there. Everyone else quits. Most within 2 weeks.

Where is "here"? NorCal? Cal and UW have been rowing powerhouses for a long time.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Last edited by: RowToTri: Dec 8, 20 20:25

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:41

Post #6 of 76 (5982 views)

I can say that rowing appears to be pretty big in Philadelphia. Boathouse row and all.

Boathouse Row - Wikipedia

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:43

Post #7 of 76 (5973 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Rowing is definitely white and rich but so is triathlon. Rowing became an NCAA sport because it was easy to recruit 50 girls and spend a ton of money on it to offset football numbers and meet title XI requirements. That's why there is no men's rowing in NCAA.

I did not row before college. Many collegiate teams let basically anyone walk on and if you are still around 6 months later you probably belong there. Everyone else quits. Most within 2 weeks.

Where is "here"? NorCal? Cal and UW have been rowing powerhouses for a long time.

Generally speaking here as in the United States.

The vibe I get from Rowing still today, or at least the men's collegiate side is the blazers thing and still being rich and white.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 18:56

Post #8 of 76 (5923 views)

Recreational rowing is huge in Boston. My daughter lives across the street from the Charles River and there are many rowing clubs and, except in winter, boats and coaches are going by all day and into the evening.

Andrew Inkpen

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 19:08

Post #9 of 76 (5897 views)

Rowing is relatively niche here in the US, unlike the UK/Europe. In the late 1800's is was a really big deal here... As an example, I was competing in the indoor rowing world championships which is always held in Boston. I was in the warm-up room on a rowing machine (erg as we call them). Getting ready before going out into the "arena" which was an indoor track facility with the ergs set up in the middle and large screens set up to project the competitors stats. The competition is 2000m. In the warm-up room, I was just a putz there to compete but the best guys in the US, olympic medalists and whatnot, were there warming up too, quietly by themselves. Then suddenly the doors slam open and in walk Elia Luini and Leonardo Pettinari, lightweight 2x olympic gold medalists from Italy. They are both wearing floor-length fur coats and each have two runway models on their arms. There are about 10 photographers around them snapping photos as they walk to 2 empty ergs to warm up. They toss off the fur coats to reveal camouflage unisuits (that's what we called the suits we raced in which are pretty similar to sleeveless tri suits) with their sponsor logos on the front (custom sponsor logo printing was basically non-existent in US rowing those days). After warm-up we all got up to go race. We went into the arena to our assigned ergs. We are each allowed a coach to sit next to us. At the Italians' assigned spots, each erg was surrounded by remote cameras and 3-4 photographers lying on the ground around the machine. I'd never seen anything like this in rowing before.

The blazer thing is not really a US thing, it's British. The only time you'd really get one of those is if you were on a team that went to race at Henley in England.

Rowing has been trying to broaden it's base. They have had a little success, but most people get introduced at University... And in the past it was mostly "elite" universities but now most have a team. But even so, the boats cost 10's of thousands of dollars. A single in the year 2000 could easily run $7k plus carbon fiber oars. I don't know about now. And you need a boathouse on riverfront property, often downtown in a major city. It definitely has its access and class issues. As we do in Tri.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Last edited by: RowToTri: Dec 8, 20 20:31

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 19:40

Post #10 of 76 (5805 views)

I lived on that site from 1994-2000ish. But almost exclusively for race results, pics, ranking etc. I didn’t even know it had a forum and wasn’t aware of the story you are referencing. Then again, despite rowing many years, I generally avoided the rowing “scene”.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 19:43

Post #11 of 76 (5798 views)

I tried rowing in highschool specifically because of....chicks, at the time I was a pot smoking skateboarding/snowboarding type...I remember having to run first and then get out on a boat in the Ottawa River in late October.

Lasted I think 3 maybe 4 practices before determining that the work involved was nowhere near the near impossibility of me getting in with one of the hot rowing ladies!

Another fun story is about a good friend of mine here in Kamloops BC who at a young high school age had saved enough money for either a single scull or a road bike, at the time (still) both were huge sports where he lived in Victoria BC.

Couple years later world junior champ (91 Gold Coast) and a bronze in the early 90’s test event at the commonwealth games also in Aus.

...just some rambling “me” stories, please try not to wreck this forum.

Maurice

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 19:45

Post #12 of 76 (5791 views)

LifeTri wrote:

I can say that rowing appears to be pretty big in Philadelphia. Boathouse row and all.

Boathouse Row - Wikipedia

Yes and no. Boathouse row is world famous. And relatively speaking, rowing popular in that city. But, let’s keep perspective. The average person was completely unaware of the sport, and if they were, it was something to the effect of “so do you row on boathouse row...those lights look cool at night.” My college roommates were barely aware of rowing despite the fact that I did it every day (in fact twice a day for many days) for 4 years!

I rowed in high school on the Charles River in Boston...not much different in terms of notoriety there despite the Head of the Charles drawing crowds of 250,000.

Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Dec 8, 20 19:47

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 20:06

Post #13 of 76 (5758 views)

They really had a monopoly on all rowing information for a long time!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 20:10

Post #14 of 76 (5743 views)

Living here in Madison, it has been pretty huge. Years ago I worked at a corporation that allowed an employee to work 1/2 day and train 1/2 day. I got to know him pretty well and found out he rowed at UW Madison but never before. He was recruited walking through the student union and went on to become a olympic medalist and when I knew him, a World Champ. An awesome guy, he could hold crazy running times which was when I grew an incredible respect for rowers. The pain tolerance and work ethic is amazing and translates well to tri. Last I knew, Bon moved to Washington and held a number of indoor rowing events.....he was pretty amazing to see on the concept machines in the fitness center. I hear he's still pretty much a legend here in Madison as they were NCAA champs in those days.

Kiwami Racing Team

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 20 20:19

Post #15 of 76 (5730 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

LifeTri wrote:

I can say that rowing appears to be pretty big in Philadelphia. Boathouse row and all.

Boathouse Row - Wikipedia

Yes and no. Boathouse row is world famous. And relatively speaking, rowing popular in that city. But, let’s keep perspective. The average person was completely unaware of the sport, and if they were, it was something to the effect of “so do you row on boathouse row...those lights look cool at night.” My college roommates were barely aware of rowing despite the fact that I did it every day (in fact twice a day for many days) for 4 years!

I rowed in high school on the Charles River in Boston...not much different in terms of notoriety there despite the Head of the Charles drawing crowds of 250,000.

DFW - Did you go to Penn??? RowtoTri and I both went to Johns Hopkins, albeit a few years apart. He rowed and I swam. I spent a few days at Penn while attending a conference in Philly; stayed at the Penn Sigma Nu house since I was a Sig Nu at the Hop.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 1:44

Post #16 of 76 (5547 views)

RowToTri wrote:

And in the past it was mostly "elite" universities but now most have a team.

Most what have a team? Most universities? Where?

http://www.jt10000.com/

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 2:20

Post #17 of 76 (5513 views)

mauricemaher wrote:

I tried rowing in highschool specifically because of..
.
.
I rowed for a time in high school but had to give it up to concentrate on other sports.It was a big deal back then (70's/80's) but it has taken on epic proportions now.This is what rowing looks like in my old Aussie high school these days..
GEELONG GRAMMAR ROWING VIDEO 2015 on Vimeo

,

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 4:01

Post #18 of 76 (5440 views)

ericmulk wrote:

DFW_Tri wrote:

LifeTri wrote:

I can say that rowing appears to be pretty big in Philadelphia. Boathouse row and all.

Boathouse Row - Wikipedia

Yes and no. Boathouse row is world famous. And relatively speaking, rowing popular in that city. But, let’s keep perspective. The average person was completely unaware of the sport, and if they were, it was something to the effect of “so do you row on boathouse row...those lights look cool at night.” My college roommates were barely aware of rowing despite the fact that I did it every day (in fact twice a day for many days) for 4 years!

I rowed in high school on the Charles River in Boston...not much different in terms of notoriety there despite the Head of the Charles drawing crowds of 250,000.

DFW - Did you go to Penn

I did.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [jt10000] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 4:20

Post #19 of 76 (5407 views)

Here is a list (it defaults to map view but you can switch to list):

https://www.row2k.com/...rch-result.cfm?cat=1

Maybe I should have said many instead of most? I don't know, but there are a ton of university teams.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Last edited by: RowToTri: Dec 9, 20 4:21

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 5:03

Post #20 of 76 (5337 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Here is a list (it defaults to map view but you can switch to list):

https://www.row2k.com/...rch-result.cfm?cat=1

Maybe I should have said many instead of most? I don't know, but there are a ton of university teams.

Thanks. Yes, many, not most.

http://www.jt10000.com/

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 5:29

Post #21 of 76 (5299 views)

Rowing popularity is certainly specific to where you are located. I grew up outside of Syracuse, NY and rich, white sports like lacrosse, rowing, and hockey were probably third through fifth in popularity behind basketball and football. I’d argue that lacrosse in central New York was more popular than football when I was in high school and college (1984-1992).

My high school rowing team was one of the best in the country. We had a boathouse and the team went to events all around the northeast and mid-Atlantic states. We weren’t the most affluent suburb but we had a lake that bordered the town so it was something other schools didn’t have. The lake hosted the annual Intercollegiate Rowing Association regatta from the 1960s to 1990s that attracted like 15,000 people. It also had a rather infamous party reputation so bad they stopped allowing alcohol at the event in the late-80s.

One of my friends was the captain of Syracuse University’s team and would have been a likely Olympian if injuries didn’t screw him. My two best friends - one rowed at a prestigious Boston area university, the other was the captain of my/our university rowing team. Our college house was the unofficial rowing team party house. We had an erg in the middle of our house.

The annual pilgrimage to the Head of the Charles was one of my favorite times of the year.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Last edited by: The GMAN: Dec 9, 20 5:29

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 5:31

Post #22 of 76 (5294 views)

RowToTri wrote:

I don’t know why I was thinking about this today, but I thought you guys would appreciate it, and it also may bring some more appreciation to the way Slowman runs this place.

About 20 years ago I was a rower just out of college and there was a website almost exactly like Slowtwitch but for rowing. A front page with the best news coverage in the sport and a wildly popular user forum in the “back”. It was THE online resource in rowing. It still exists, sans forum, and is called Row2k.com.

In rowing there is the National Training Center which is the home of the National Team, but actual selection of the boats to go to the Olympics, World Championships, etc. was largely done by trials, with some exceptions (I’m describing the system back then, I know nothing of it now). The rowing clubs often submitted entries to trials, and they often won, usually in the smaller boats. At the time I was rowing at Potomac Boat Club, which was often successful getting crews on the National Team by winning trials.

There was a popular newspaper called Rowing News that did an interview with a National Team coach and he was asked about the women’s lightweight quad he was coaching and another crew in the same event training at Potomac that was challenging them at trials. His response was to say a lot of very derogatory things about the women from Potomac. I don’t remember specifically but it was shockingly bad.

I started a thread on the Row2k thread that just had the quote from the coach and a question about what people think about it. I gave no opinion. And people went off on him big time. It was the most commented on thread that I remember. For days. A well known and loved National Team member came on and begged us to stop, saying the team coaches were unable to do their jobs and prepare the team because of the thread and we were damaging the US’s standing in the rowing world. And shortly after that, the owner of the website made a post about how the forum had gotten out of control and he was shutting the whole thing down. Permanently. 20 years later, as far as I know, he’s never tried starting it up again and all that traffic went to a forum on a once-deserted competitor of his. Then at trials, the crew from Potomac won.

He was good friends with many people in the management/coaching of the national team and I am sure he was getting a ton of pressure. I cannot imagine Slowman making that decision in that situation (or any situation really – he’d find a real solution).

To me, that sounds like it's still the fault of the guy who blew his mouth off about the women.

So, the forum didn't fold due to forum folks talking or the forum leader folding it...........somebody from the rowing world outside the forum sounds like they torpedoed that sucker.

Imagine in the Lance Armstrong days Lance torpedoing bikeforums.com or something because they were talking shit about him.

If things stated on a forum don't fall under the libel/slander umbrella and people aren't calling for violence then it's bad luck that a topic came up on the wrong guy with a penchant for revenge.

Our Volkswagen forums folded locally because the newer generation preferred to take half naked pictures to post on Instagram and Facebook instead of talk about cars. No traffic and no ad revenue to keep it going.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 6:09

Post #23 of 76 (5219 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

Did you row before college? I think Rowing has a huge demographic problem, and also a body of water problem.

In my lifetime the only rower I ever met in person was a cousin that was a non athlete that walked onto the NCAA team at UC Davis. She made it on the team in part because there weren't even try outs at the time. Women's crew being an NCAA sport boggles my mind for most schools. I seriously don't know anyone that rows.

Was rowing ever a big thing here?

based on what I read about the Lori Loughlin case, rowing and other sports, are affirmative action programs for rich white people. Lots of politics and back room dealing involved above and beyond pure athletic ability.

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Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 6:15

Post #24 of 76 (5198 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Rowing is relatively niche here in the US, unlike the UK/Europe. In the late 1800's is was a really big deal here... As an example, I was competing in the indoor rowing world championships which is always held in Boston. I was in the warm-up room on a rowing machine (erg as we call them). Getting ready before going out into the "arena" which was an indoor track facility with the ergs set up in the middle and large screens set up to project the competitors stats. The competition is 2000m. In the warm-up room, I was just a putz there to compete but the best guys in the US, olympic medalists and whatnot, were there warming up too, quietly by themselves. Then suddenly the doors slam open and in walk Elia Luini and Leonardo Pettinari, lightweight 2x olympic gold medalists from Italy. They are both wearing floor-length fur coats and each have two runway models on their arms. There are about 10 photographers around them snapping photos as they walk to 2 empty ergs to warm up. They toss off the fur coats to reveal camouflage unisuits (that's what we called the suits we raced in which are pretty similar to sleeveless tri suits) with their sponsor logos on the front (custom sponsor logo printing was basically non-existent in US rowing those days). After warm-up we all got up to go race. We went into the arena to our assigned ergs. We are each allowed a coach to sit next to us. At the Italians' assigned spots, each erg was surrounded by remote cameras and 3-4 photographers lying on the ground around the machine. I'd never seen anything like this in rowing before.

The blazer thing is not really a US thing, it's British. The only time you'd really get one of those is if you were on a team that went to race at Henley in England.

Rowing has been trying to broaden it's base. They have had a little success, but most people get introduced at University... And in the past it was mostly "elite" universities but now most have a team. But even so, the boats cost 10's of thousands of dollars. A single in the year 2000 could easily run $7k plus carbon fiber oars. I don't know about now. And you need a boathouse on riverfront property, often downtown in a major city. It definitely has its access and class issues. As we do in Tri.

In terms of rowing be accessible its "almost" as much as a "non lifestyle" sport as ski jumping. Ski jumping is an extreme case. You need a ski jump, in a place with snow, that someone pays to operate. Rowing is a less extreme version of this. You need water access, transport to get there, boats etc etc.

I thought about trying this sport 3 years ago and learn how to do it, but commuting across town in traffic to get on the water alone was a non starter (water access). It really did not fit into lifestyle like sports you can easily access (forget about economics). As expense as tri is, you can bike and run anywhere (even in downtown beijing if you want....you just have to get used to riding in traffic). Swim access is tougher in the developing world, but in the developed world plenty of swim access (at least way more than rowing and certainly more than the extreme case of ski jumping).

This is why I largely consider the winter Olympics a joke from a competitive angle. Here in Canada we pat ourselves on the back for winning so many winter olympics medals, when in reality those are sports that most of the world cannot even do, and even within Canada the majority cannot access even if we live in a cold climate.

If you dominate track and soccer, you nation is largely competing with anyone on earth. All the other sports are not acccessible by most of humanity...its just degrees of none accessibility...slot rowing into that heirarchy somewhere.

Re: Story of the death of the rowing equivalent to the Slowtwitch forum: [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 9, 20 6:16

Post #25 of 76 (5194 views)

I wouldn't judge all university rowing programs based on what that one coach at USC was doing.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

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