I am still confused on what Light is describing however I can tell you that the swim pull is an inefficient movement and the single aim should not be to create the strongest possible pull.

I think those differences you're talking about re: technique of not creating the strongest possible pull are more relevant to FFOP swimmers.

For a MOPer like myself, it's like night and day with a more powerful pull with faster turnover with best power. Sure, I don't pull all bent-armed like a row on the Vasa, but I've found that as long as I try and emulate an EVF (or sad semblance of it), I get faster.

I'm up to 70 watts for 3000m, but done in short sets of 200-400m with about 10-15sec rest in between. My pool swimming has continued to improve as well, but more on the endurance component - I can hold that 1:25/100 for 3000 worth of intervals between 100-400 with short rest, possibly more now if I push it hard, as opposed to doing it for half that distance about 6 weeks ago. But it's hard for me to do all that swim volume even on the Vasa - I've fallen a bit off the swim-core wagon and need to get back on; although right now, 4.5 hrs per week of serious swim training = falling off the wagon, whereas pre-vasa, zero swim training = falling off the wagon!

You can do recovery stroke on the vasa. Turn your body 180, so your facing the back, secure the platform to the front of the machine instead of the back, use handles instead of paddles, then work the recovery part only. Overwater style, no pull. It's very effective, I'm sure they have something on their website.

It's a great machine. I've been using the ergo meter for years.

"Then go 5 rounds of 10 pulls max effort then a minute of active recovery. Helpful to hook up both of the resistance bands the bench for these and I prefer Damper Door #2 for maximum ability to accelerate hand speed through pull. I will typically see peaks watts at 240-260 during this set."

So, JOOC, how fast are you in the pool if you're hitting 260 watts on the Vasa??? Are you a former Oly Trials guy, or sub-50 for 100 scy??? I've never been on the Vasa (use stretch cords instead) so I have no idea how watts translate to 50/100 yd times, but I have been swimming competitively most of my life.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

3 months later I am now my 4th week on setting 7 having slowly worked my way from the bottom door setting #1, for the past 3 months it has been just pulling 2000m HIM efforts then up the ladder on the door setting each week or other week. In my last 4 weeks of build my mid week 3 times a week in training is at 1:40-1:50, then I go race pace on the Saturday where I do my own triathlon s/b/r in the garage. Prior to this for the first two months it was swim every day for 40 mins, study the watts and HR, I have the date in training peaks. Today I pulled 2000m in 32:55, 50spm and 95 watts. During the week my TT 1000 was sub 1:30. For the readers I started at 2000m in about 41 mins, now I'm at pulling 2k at 34 without break a sweat. For me now its about pulling thru to the end of the stroke, engaging lats, tri's and all those other shoulder engaging muscle not normally focused on. I'm very impressed now. My upper body, arms are super strong even though feel like Ian Thorpe shoulders but in reality they not... They just feel tight. My first test is coming up in 4 weeks time Olympic distance. Having not touch the pool in 2 yrs this will be interesting as for the breathing and leg kick... Oh and with wetsuit wow this will be an interesting test as for speed.

I am now going into 100 repeats with 20s rest and slowly bring this down to 5 s rests in the final week.

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age is just a number after your name

UPDATE:
4 months since getting the vasa, just had two races in the last two weeks
One being OD distance, fresh water lake, and a bit choppy. Went 25:xx
Following week sprint distance, beach start started wide keeping out of the swimmer chop (maybe 15-20s slower including stopping to adjust the new goggles) 10:12 or ~ 1:21/100m

this IS a big difference to swim sub 1:30. I have not trained in a pool for 2 seasons. Last year nothing only for races. And then the year before I was in the pool every other day. My last pool training was May 2014. In fact my fastest sprint swim in a salt water waterway was 11:44 on the back of proper training.in feb 2012. Now mind you I just swam in a HUUB wetsuit this sprint race, but the week before was just a basic 2xu wetsuit. There you go. the proof is in the pudding. The only thing i would need now is better sighting, keep to the inside of the course and perhaps see another 20s off my time. In another couple weeks will be a another OD race and then the following week to this a HIM race. Perhaps a sub 30, but lets add another 10s/100m that's 1:32/100m, and sub 30.

Not bad in my books.

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age is just a number after your name

Very cool to hear good things. I scored a Vasa Erg on Craigslist and am excited to give it a go (actually mostly excited to not have to get up at 3a.m. to go to the pool quite as often)

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Interesting.
I have been very fortunate and just bought a 2nd hand Erg for a very good price.
In comparison to many posters on here my swimming is "poor" in fact I believe I am a typical AG triathlete (IM PB 11:40:xx) average biker, average runner- below average swimmer with a 1:58/100m IM pace.
A change of job meant I wasnt getting enough pool time so I'm going to try to nail the swim using the Erg and this thread.

Plan is very loose at the mo but 2 or 3 30 min sessions per week with pool swimming once a week. This will be additional to the usual bike and run training I've been doing.

Like I said I'm just playing at this really and I've tended to spend more time on the life side of the life/training balance.

The first go resulted in very similar times for my pool swims 400m - 08:00 so we'll see.

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Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.

I got the ANT+ power meter upgrade last month. Anyone have any experience with this? I haven't gotten around to downloading any workouts, but it looks promising. It will be nice to look at workouts and see progress.

What's is required to get the upgrade

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age is just a number after your name

Actually I use my garmin 910 in other mode , wear the hr strap and I then get the hr tss score plus I just display spm and watts at the end of a workout, all this becomes data for training peaks. I guess ant+ does this wirelessly for me

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age is just a number after your name

how did you get the ANT+ upgrade PM?? I've been waiting for this since I bought my ERG, but I don't see anything on their website...

Here's a link they emailed me before I ordered it, VASA. I can't find the direct link to it on their website , so may not be "fully" released yet. I spoke with Karen and their customer service was great.

I'm sure everyone can go back and forth on how much strength is involved in swimming. I'm curious to know how much power one of these young kids that swims 1:15/100yds. I have a hard time believing that some 10-11 year old kid can out pull me on a VASA. I also may be totally wrong. I'm only pulling 30-50W now on a set of 500m.

If the kid is truly swimming 1:15/100yds, it's going to be a lot of watts, like 90+, I'll bet.

While I haven't gotten a kid onto a Vasa, as posted before, I've seen girl 12yr old swimmers in a competitive local club do pull sets with paddles much larger than their hands at sub 1:20 pace, while banded and using a pull buoy. Their turnover is very impressive - it's very clear from seeing that, that these fast swimmers have a lot of power. (I cannot pull that fast with the exact same paddles, even all out!)

A big male slow swimmer might be able to outmuscle them on a Vasa for 10 strokes, but for the 50-100 strokes of a typical short set, forget about it. It's power, not strength.

Some swimmers though def get a lot of propulsion from their kick, and will need less arm power - I swam next to a girl competitive swimmer today at the Y who had a stroke rate nearly half of mine, but kept equal pace with me. Then I saw how fast she was with kick sets - yowzas! Her breaststroke with a board, head out of water, was like 1:40 pace! (Those little girls I saw were banded + buoy, so no kick contribution.)

I would love to get some kid on a VASA to test the theory of swimming and power. In the meanwhile.....I'll plug away on my VASA this winter.

I would too!

But just to be clear - I can guarantee you 100% that those 12-13 yr old girls in the pool were NOT pulling at a measly 30-40 watts equivalent. Just by looking at how fast that paddle was moving, I'd say at least 80 watts, minimum, and I wouldnt be at all surprised to see them 100+watts on those fast sets. There's no mystery there - they are absolutely NOT pulling at wimpy power levels, no friggin' way.


An adult male like me would probably be able to outmuscle them in watts for maybe 5, 10 pulls,which is like a 25yds/m length. But for 50m and above distances, forget about it.

Would the kids physical size be a major contributing factor here?
Smaller frontal area and a good position is going to cut through the water better?

Less power but more efficient?

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Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.

I'm sure they do have less frontal area, and yes, that will require less power. But as said above, even with that as a main consideration, there is no way they are pulling the equivalent of a 30watt Vasa and swimming like sub 1:20 pace. 30 watts is a very gentle pull, you don't pull with good turnover with paddles at that wattage in the water.

Again, this also makes sense from a training standpoint. Everyone likes to say these 12 year old fast competitive swimmers have no power, but then ask these every last one of these girl swimmers how long and how much they train. It's like years of team swimming, and currently 5x/wk, minimum 1 hr of coached club swims with tons of intervals. If they didn't do that, well, they swim as fast as a typical 12 year old, which is like very slow, even compared to a middling AG triathlete. It's not just technique that they're gaining from those years and hours of HARD sets, it's a lot of power.

From my Vasa perspective, and yes, it seems to me mostly my sole opinion as of now, but i would definitely wager that even for these 12 year old girls, their power is by far the bigger factor as to why they are so fast compared to an middling triathlete, and NOT their technique or small frontal area. You could destroy their frontal area with a drag suit, destroy their technique with having them swim one-arm tied to their waist, and they would STILL beat well over 70% of triathletes at any distance in swimming. (Heck, a lot of them breastroke kick set at sub 1:40 pace, and that's with arms contributing zero since they're holding the board and head out of water, which is already faster than over half of triathletes.)

I really think this "more efficient" thing for faster swimmers is massively overstated and overhyped as a reason for why competitive swimmers and ex-competitive swimmers are so much faster than middling triathletes. When comparing competitive swimmers, all of whom have high power, yes, it can make or break with the tiny gaps required to win/lose. But when comparing a middling AG triathlete to them, no way.

This recently posted video also shows that even with a ridiculous drag suit and a freaking HELMET, a competitive swimmer can still beat a swimmer (reporter in this case) who swims 42 for 50m. Sorry, but these competitive swimmers have power, power, and more power, so much so it overwhelms even huge drag and technique penalties compared to even a decent swimmer. (42 for 50m is pretty decent, at least way faster than even an above avg triathlete.)
http://www.nrk.no/sport/ramm-vs.-henrik-christiansen-1.12078009

have been using my vasa pretty regularly this winter. Got into a real pool last night for a 800y time trial. 1:43 pace for me which is quite an improvement. Last July swam oly distance in 35 minutes. Still not able to generate much power compared to you guys though. I have been doing 3x a week 100m repeats and can hold 40 ish watts for the repeats and I am spent when done. Rest of the time just moderate pulling. Spending around 3 hours a week. Not sure how you guys generate so much power for so long.

The power will come in time, If you look at my previous posts. This is backed up with this week where I'm off to my Challenge Melbourne, my first 2k swim since using Vasa, during the past week my 3x week called for main set of 12 x 50 on the 1:00. I was pulling 112 watts for 50% then the last 4 or 5 I still managed 90+ watts.
Last weekend my OD swim have dropped some 4 mins without touching water.
What you will find if you really really focus on technique and engage those muscles, when you do touch the water you will be pleasantly surprised. I'm now at the FOP.

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age is just a number after your name

Oh and my 2k swim trials race pace on the vasa I pull around 84 watts for 33 mins.

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age is just a number after your name

Your power/pace on the Vasa sounds about right to me. 40 watts for 1:43ish pace if you're going all-out in a 800y time trial, sounds about right , although I'm sure there's a range of watts/speed depending on technique, but that's pretty what I'd expect if I were pulling at that sort of power on the Vasa.

I'm now off my heavy swim block, and back to 2-3hrs of pool-Vasa per week (compared to 7-9). My speed has still been maintained - what I am noticing though is that my endurance for 3000+yd workouts has diminished - I used to be able to power through 3000 easily, even getting faster in the final 20 minutes, but now with the reduced volume, I'm definitely feeling the back end and my pace slows on the later sets. I'm still overall substantially faster than I was pre-Vasa.

Definitely stick with it - I went through probably 2 months where my Vasa power didn't go anywhere, but I just kept increasing the volume on it, and then later on after acclimating to that volume increase, if I pulled back the volume, I was stronger and faster.

I still think it's the best thing for triathlete swimming for me - I can't think of a single negative about it except for the $2k price (it's built very well though, worth the 2k.)

I picked up a Vasa erg a couple weeks ago because of threads like these. Thanks for the testimonials, lightheir.

I'm currently reteaching my muscles how to burn after a 6 month layoff from swimming. I can comfortably hold a 2:00/100m pace for 30 minutes and 100s at 1:40 (on 2:00) start to hurt after 6-8. I swam a 36:20 (1:52/100m) at Buffalo Springs last summer so these paces feel about right. I had to cheat and put a book under the rear feet of the bench so that I wasn't bouncing at the base of the slope. Apparently 40-50 watts doesn't get you up the slope and that bouncing is pretty annoying.

I've got an oly in March that I'm looking forward to. I won't be able to get in the pool before then so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

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I think you have the Vasa trainer? The erg doesn't have an incline, but the trainer is the one where you pull on the incline against your body weight.

Honestly, I think both of them would work great (I have the erg.)