I suspect it would work - if I only had a Vasa, I am 100% certain I could complete a race swim of even IM distance without difficulty with zero pool time, but without any pool time, I definitely would not bet on getting a PR or "A" result.

I suspect that I'd lose significant feel for the water with zero pool time, and that would cost me, even if my pull power and cadence were better; I unfortunately don't have any hard evidence though whether the gains on a Vasa would offset the loss of water feel, but it's hard to deny how important water training is, even if it's only a sprinkling.


As well, a large factor will depend on how good a swimmer you were before starting and how ingrained your pool technique is before the Vasa. On the bright side, I would consider my swim technique 'subpar' at best, being an adult-onset swimmer self-taught with no talent and almost no coaching, and if my technique is good enough to make gains with the Vasa, it's likely that it'll work for the majority of triathletes who aren't total water noobs.

Judging from what I'm doing now, even 30 minutes of pool time every 2 weeks would be enough for me to continue having the gains I'm making now on the Vasa.

However, if you literally have zero pool access, I can't think of anything remotely close to working compared to the Vasa. There is not a single person on any forum of any sort who has posted about successfully using swim cords alone and then with zero pool swim, had better results than if they had simply done nothing at all, and definitely no person who has commented about any sort of working swim cord program with minimal pool time who has actually improved their swim. I'll also report that for me at least, my big fear about losing water feel and thus speed, was definitely overblown judging from my results so far - I'm finding you really need only minimal pool time to reap the gains of the Vasa training, and the gains are real both in pool and OWS. (I did zero OWS prior to Vineman, still legit PR'd the swim by 2 minutes, which for me is huge.)

I can't believe an all-triathlete masters group where they all can kick an all-out 100 yd faster than 1:48??? A 1:48/100 yd kick is excellent by tri standards, way, way above average, since most tri people can't go much faster than 1:30 for swimming 100 yd all out.

Awhile back you made some comments about having a scissor kick when swimming freestyle; do you have a scissor when just kicking with the board??? Or have you managed to banish the scissor???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hah - maybe I'm decent at "1" kick set all out, but as said, get me on 2+, and I'm dying at 2:00+/100yds, so you likely hold my kicking in too high regard!

I unfortunately still have a small scissor kick on normal swimming (not with the board at all). I can't seem to banish the thing. Interestingly, I can also swim with a tight ankle band and I go straight no problem (about 20sec slower per 100 though), and I can also swim fairly normally while tightly banded with a buoy zero kick, so I'm not completely reliant on that small scissor kick to keep cadence and propulsion.

I actually think my scissor has to do with breathing rotation - I def look like I'm still overrotating on my breaths on my homebrewed video despite me keeping only one goggle out of the water. Am still trying to fix it, but it's not easy! Part of it also may have to do with my speed or lack thereof - the scissor decreases a lot if I go all out like 1:20 or just under per 100, and worsens the easier I go.

Of course, I'd probably benefit even more from kick sets in the pool to correct it, but alas, that's low priority for me now given my limited pool time.

Actually, since you do not scissor with the board, prob your scissor would go away if you were just able to do more in-the-water swimming to work the kinks out of your stroke, but it doesn't sound like it is holding you back that much. Eventually you'll get to where you don't need to scissor at all to breathe. In any case, you're making excellent progress, much better than I would have predicted. You've made me a believer in the Vasa:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yes, thanks.

I actually spend 4 weeks in the pool doing nothing but trying to eliminate that scissor kick completely a year ago. I don't think I'll ever get rid of it, but I do think part of it is that I use a slow 2-beat kick and that tends to accentuate the kick appearance - when I actively kick hard, it seems to look pretty normal on my homebrewed video, so I think part of it is just my 2-beater. (But it's still nothing as nice as that Shinji guy on Total immersion video so I clearly have progress to make.)

You should never, ever, under any circumstances, watch TI videos. You have violated the strict aspiring fish protocol:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

LOL! I'm totally not a TI fan myself (I actually blame TI for some real problems - in the book I had, it literally said to rotate so far for the breath that you were nearly on your back. It said the sweet spot for breath balance is literally almost on your back! I think they might have changed it, but wow that really killed my swimming for over a year), but that Shinji Takeuchi video is pretty nice, irregardless of TI.

What door setting are you using.
Are you monitoring your watts and spm?

I ask as it it was an interesting comparison between us. Then to see how it will be transferred for me when I get to the pool. I have just put move up yo door # 5 setting and now have noticed that there is an place of needing adaption to the greater resistance. This week for me was a an easy week for FTP testing on Swim bike run. Next week is the start of another three week build and if anything like last 4-5 weeks I will need to take a day off during the week or just skip the Friday before the weekend indoors triathlon SBR I do.
Like you I have observed too have found the swimming is useful to the whole overall fitness being off the feet.
I'm swimming 2000m a day with easy on every other day, then Saturdays I'd races day simulation in SBR.

What's rewarding is the increased in door setting by the end o the week I am swimming in about the same time/spm but the watt numbers are growing. Now up to 62 watts on #5 door for 40 mins.

All of this though is having to be super careful monitoring fatigue. And like you and others so nice to roll out of bed and not waste time driving to the pool :-))

Well I'm off to my race simulation now being 70.3 all before breakfast!

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age is just a number after your name

I honestly don't have much wattage difference between doors. I can even pull door 7 for the whole workout, but my cadence drops for the given effort.

I typically hold 60-70watts for moderate effort, anywhere from 45-90 minutes. 50-60 if I'm going easier, <50 is recovery pace.

Max sprints for me are like 120watts peak but more like 100-120watts for 100m sprint. My pool sprint works out to 1:20-1/100m for around max type 100, so pretty much what the vasa pace is pegging me at.

Just out of interest, are times/paces/distances pretty realistic compared to real swimming?

I'd say for mine, it's almost spot-on my pool paces per 100m. But I'm sure it'll differ for some - I probably just happen to be near the average of whatever they used to calculate it. (Obviously if I put on a drag suit in the pool, I'd be way slower in the water compared to the Vasa.)

As a result, the distances for me are pretty much 1:1, which is convenient for me but YMMV.

I contacted the owner back in the winter and he said the price should be ~ $2,000 (about the same as vasa).

He said it will be convertible to paddle-board, SUP and kayak.

Well done of the workload and the feedback from the workout. I'm no guru but from my workout out if you were in the 45-50 AG that would put you at the FOP.

You must have some really good strength in those shoulders/arms and those pecs must be bulging by now. I now mine have got firmer in only two weeksn and after four weeks my upper body has never been like this since 2 yrs ago from pool swimming. Mind you every day on the vasa from nothing is a not a great example. Then I suspect in 4 weeks I too should be able to pull on door settings 7.

Thanks for the feedback on your times. Nice to know those in front of me using the vasa are getting the desired results that I can look forward too. I guess I can relax, not fret about getting to the pool, though makes me wonder about my swim technique.. Another story for later.

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age is just a number after your name

Almost on your back, OMG, this TI stuff is worse than I had imagined possible!!! Did it take you over a year before you figured out that actually the reverse is true, i.e. that you want to turn your head as little as possible??? Wow, that is possibly the worst swim guidance I have ever heard of. I'm just glad you've gotten well past that:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I thought you were swimming in a 25-yd (scy) pool and going 1:20-ish for a 100 yds all-out, which is a bit shorter than 100 meters. You could say I'm splitting hairs but really the diff is about 10% which is quite significant, e.g. 1:20/100 scm = about 1:12/100 scy. I'm very conscious of this because my swim club has an indoor 25-yd pool and an outdoor 25-m pool and, in the summer T-storm season, often times the lifeguards will run us out of the outdoor, 25-m pool due to T&L, and we have to move inside to the 25-yd pool, so I have to reset my expectations time-wise for any given 100, 200, or whatever. This happened today as a matter of fact:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Woops, yes you're right. The Vasa in meters and all the pools I swim in are yards, so no, I don't sprint at 1:20/100m, more like 1:20/100yds, so probably like 1:27ish/100m. I've had rude awakenings a few years ago when I got into a 25m pool and saw some slow times!

I just did my first workout on my new Vasa............ Rude awakening on how weak I am in swimming. I did a 50 minute workout today and it was TOUGH. I'm an adult onset swimmer and have been swimming for 11 months. I'm hoping to improve on my 2:00+min/100m for 1500m. I probably averaged about 15-20 watts for the whole workout. It felt a lot harder on my muscles than swimming without the breathing issues. It said I only did 1800m but my muscles felt like I swam 3000m. I'm hoping to see improvements before my first 70.3 in 4 weeks. I'll still be going to the pool at least 3x per week too. I'll give some progress reports later on. I hope to see some of the results lightheir has had!

Great that you're on the Vasa road to improvement. Good to have buddies - it felt lonely on these forums for awhile with so few folks with it.

Expect to feel that muscular beatdown for quite awhile, weeks, if not 2 months, but keep at it - it gets a lot easier after 2-3 weeks. My first 2 weeks on the machine were averaging 25-30watts for 2000m, and then my arms were DEAD. You'll get up to 50 watts in a matter of weeks, but getting over that, at least for me, has taken more steady work.

For me, a 10 watt jump was a significant effect on pool swim - you don't even need a watch since you'll feel so much stronger for distance. A 20 watt jump is a like a whole different category of swimmer, like 10sec/100.

Keep us updated - good to have other folks for motivation.

Last tip - after you get a bit used to the machine, try and video your pool stroke and make it look like the machine stroke (or those Karly pipes videos). I was a bit horrified to see how errant the tail end of my pull was in the pool, and turns out I was so focused on 'high elbow' on the pull that I was distorting my stroke. I had to actually dip my arm and elbow a fair amount (it actually feels like a dropped elbow to me, but it's not on my own video) to get it to where it's supposed to be, and once I did that same drop on the Vasa I was putting out even more watts. I do feel like once I did this, I got even more concordance between Vasa training and pool training - before this adjustment I'll guesstimate I felt Vasa was about 80% as effective as pool yards, but once I made that small fix, it feels like a 1:1 concordance, meaning Vasa time = pool time in effectiveness for me.

Love getting on the Erg for a quick warm up before a ride or heading to pool for session. Mixing up the combination of SPM and Watts depending on what the body needs for the day. Short on time, but want some big bang... Try a 3 minute warm up mixing pull patterns. then 4 x 30 second build ups to a moderately hard effort. Then go 5 rounds of 10 pulls max effort then a minute of active recovery. Helpful to hook up both of the resistance bands the bench for these and I prefer Damper Door #2 for maximum ability to accelerate hand speed through pull. I will typically see peaks watts at 240-260 during this set. Sport specific power for sure. Cool down with another 3 minutes with good technique focus.

Another good session on the Erg is once you have determined your endurance SPM, start at Damper Door #2 (DD#2) and go for 15 seconds, then adjust to DD#3 and go for 15 more seconds holding the same SPM. Adjust 2 more times up to DD#5 and that will give you 1 minute of total work in 15 sec intervals.
If you can continue to hold SPM, you will see a nice increase in Watts on each subsequent interval. Repeat the sequence 2-4 more time depending on your ability.

Let me make sure I understand: Lets divide the stroke into 4 parts. Part 1, recovery while hand is over water. Part 2, initial catch, Part 3 Middle of Stroke, Part 4 end sweep.

Are you specifically referring to the end sweep?

I can't even max out 140watts on the Vasa if doing more than 20 yards and def cannot get remotely near 240 even for a max single pull - that's strong!

Wow! Your pulls are what my FTP is on the bike.

I just got my VASA last month. I've only been on it average 1-2x per week but I'm only doing avg of 20 watts on a 45 minute workout. Looks like I've got a lot of ceiling left.

I was actually pulling ineffectively before I video'd it, because I was so fixated on trying to hold a 'high elbow" (keep elbow near top of water) that I changed the angles of my pull and my forearm got all sorts of crazy in the process. So my 'high elbow' wasn't a real high elbow - it was a fake high elbow, only allowed because I would compromise the rest of my stroke at the cost of keeping the elbow up. Lost a lot of power with that.

My elbow is a lot lower in the water now after videoing it, but the stroke looks more natural and has significantly more power. I've come to accept that it's futile for a MOP swimmer like me to try and force my arm into emulating Sun Yang when I clearly lack the Musc. Endurance and flexibility to even get close - I end up breaking my stroke if I try and fake my way to that high elbow at my ability level.

Stick with it. The power will come up. Keep focussing on the technique. Sport specific strength is a great limiter for triathletes especially those adult learned. You may want to incorporate more frequency and shorter sessions (some of which have a higher intensity) to continue refining technique. Good Luck

wow I feel really weak now. I have been using the vasa 4-5 times a week for the past couple of weeks and cannot imagine pulling that hard. I start out around 40-50 watts but for anything longer than 500m its usually down to lower 30's