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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
On the Vasa, it says I go 4200 meters of freestyle for 90 minutes. In the pool, I average about 3000yards per hour when I have the lane to myself, which pretty much only occurs if I'm off work for some reason and can get to the pool at some strange hour where it's empty (like 10:30AM on a weekday) so I rarely get to do that.

I know swimmers do a lot of volume and 1500m can be a literal warm-up for them, but I think I've got a long way before that occurs; right now, 1500 is def a legit training stimulus for me and can be done in 30mins, either on the Vasa or pool - I'm too time crunched for otherwise, so I'll typically just drop right into a set of 15 x 100 or 8 x 200 on the Vasa, or pool on the rare day where there's no circle swim. (Happens during winter, but in summer season like now, it's always a crappy circle lunch swim, so it's usually a near-random set of 25s to 200s depending on who I'm waiting for and/or trying to swim around, done at a pretty high intensity when I'm actually swimming and not waiting.)

Well, it sounds like you're on your way though. When you get to where you feel better during the last 20 min than your first 20 of the 90 min workout, then you'll know you're really in swim shape. This reminds me of a short interview I read somewhere fairly recently (within last 2 yrs or so) with one of the top 1/2-mary guys; his daily, e.g. 7 days/wk, training mostly consisted of a 12-16 mile run with a steady pace for first 10-14 mi, then running the last 2-3 mi as hard as he could. This is all he did, no intervals, no "tempo" run, fartlek, "long run", etc, etc. This has always been the way I've liked to do all my workouts also, be they sw, bk, or run, and it was quite interesting to see that a very fast (around 1:02-ish IIRC) half mary guy trained similarly. Since I know you're a runner by background, figured you would appreciate this anecdote also:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I agree with you. I sort of use that unofficial feeling as my fitness guide as well, adjusting to length. I used to be a marathon runner, and I knew I was getting near race shape when in my 22 mile training run, miles 19-22 were by far the fastest and most exciting.

I get that feeling now in the pool if I go easy that week in volume, but since I'm ramping up the swim volume a lot, I'm getting toasted on the long stuff the whole way, but that's a good sign of impending progress!
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [Harapnuk] [ In reply to ]
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Harapnuk wrote:
how do you capture the power data with your 910XT??

I've read online that they are working on ANT integration, and when i talked to the staff last week they said they were still working on it and didn't know when it would be released...

I'm on the fence about ordering one at the moment. If there is ANT integration coming down the pipe, I might just wait. That would be awesome and think they world sell more units.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Yes, I agree with you. I sort of use that unofficial feeling as my fitness guide as well, adjusting to length. I used to be a marathon runner, and I knew I was getting near race shape when in my 22 mile training run, miles 19-22 were by far the fastest and most exciting.

I get that feeling now in the pool if I go easy that week in volume, but since I'm ramping up the swim volume a lot, I'm getting toasted on the long stuff the whole way, but that's a good sign of impending progress!

Know exactly what you mean by "toasted" on the long stuff, but indeed it is a good sign of impending progress:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [DC Pattie] [ In reply to ]
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I found pics of the Swimfast Ergometer

There's isn't any details and can't find anything else online.

Looks interesting. Anyone have any info or know when this will hit the market?
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
I found pics of the Swimfast Ergometer

There's isn't any details and can't find anything else online.

Looks interesting. Anyone have any info or know when this will hit the market?

Looks interesting
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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The Swimfast ergometer does look interesting but judging by the other machines the company is marketing....it does not seem to be a budget friendly competitor.




"WHEW...I really regret that workout!"..............Noone
Last edited by: COJO: Aug 2, 14 13:14
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [COJO] [ In reply to ]
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COJO wrote:
The Swimfast ergometer does look interesting but judging by the other machines the company is marketing....it does not seem to be a budget friendly competitor.


Was thinking the same. In fact, it may be more expensive than the vasa..
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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If a company could do a Vasalike swim machine for $1000, it' would make a killing.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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I know that is what I had to go through. But then craiglist always has the trainer for sale. Me picking up the ergo on CL was just dogged perseverance, I was going to settle on the trainer and over time slowly add the parts to build it into a ergo. By using a garmin 910 you would still get the same benefit in feedback just no wattage. If you google vasa videos there was one vid at an expo where the coach got the swimmers on the trainer to pull up and release down the rail very slowly. Over several months they PR'd and won their NCAA meet. So it can be done another way


gibson00 wrote:
Geez, you guys are making me want to tap the credit line....... :)


Ah man, forget it. Just went through the checkout for fun to see about shipping. $450 US to ship to Canada!
$2000US, 15% import tax + ship = 2750, then about 10% exchange......over $3k delivered.
Guess its gonna be a set of $60 Stretchcordz for now...


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [Harapnuk] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck.

I would not be surprised to see your IM swim down to 1:15. giving it several months. Just to give you a perspective. in a little over 4 weeks my 2000m has dropped 5 mins. !! Of course there will be a platuea effect


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [toadbra] [ In reply to ]
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I am using Garmin 910 in the 'other' mode so i have HR data then training peaks -TP, can do a hrTSS score. I will record the ergo average watts recording this in TP workout summary in the post workout description so i can in the calendar view see the summary and the matrix. Over time think the watts like power data on a bike or running pace. You are looking for a gradual growth in the watts and an even slower growth in the HR or perceived effect-PE. So the effect is similar to wattage on the bike. You will be able to hold a higher wattage for a given HR over a longer time.

good luck


toadbra wrote:
Would anyone mind sharing how they are using the power data?

Although I've been capturing it with my Garmin 910xt I'm not 100% sure I understand exactly what I should be looking at.

Also, for those who are capturing their power data are you doing your workouts at one long interval or breaking everything (each set) down individually.

Would love to hear what you folks are doing!!!


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Over time workouts will become like running. You just know by feel how a run feels easy, moderate, tempo or hard. By monitoring watts one can do just that as you say workout will become one of the other as a % of HR or watts. I know in my duathlon training my coach will interchnage between % of HR or % of 5k pacing.

Good luck



lightheir wrote:
Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but just relaying what I'm doing.

For just monitoring effort, pace or power work on the Vasa - I strongly suspect the power is just mathematically calculated from the pace or vice-versa, not some whole separate powermeter measurement.

I think the only reason to go specifically with power is if, for example you were going to do bikelike workouts like "80% of FTP effort" or similar, where you go at a percent of a tested power number. (I, however, have not done this.)

I switched to power from pace at one point also because you can set the Vasa to give you dedicated power for each arm pull, whereas you can't do that for pace. I wanted to make sure my left arm wasn't lagging my right in the pull, and thus I made sure their power numbers were comparable if not identical. After doing that, I've stuck with power, but as long as I'm not checking the per arm power, pace would be just as good.

I'm actually trying not to get too caught up in micromanaging the numbers, though. The PM is a bit jumpy, so it's hard to target a specific number as opposed to a range. I just try to increase the load progressively, and use the PM to make sure I don't slack off on intervals or long efforts.


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Pace per/100 and watts is visable.

By pacing it can work but will not in the long term, consider this. Over time fitness improves then the pace will become easier, HR will drop therefore the workout effort -perceived effort-PE also becomes an easier PE and you are not developing your engine aerobically. In an ideal training workout it should be consistent and taxing. By developing the PE, the heart is being worked and therefore aerobic engine and the neuromuscular/ nervous system capacity your pace times will slowly fall or climb depending on the sport. Think of it like running. Over time running becomes easier at a pace but your are not working that engine then you must increase the pace/HR/PE to keep growing/improving.

Hopefully I have made sense.
M


ericmulk wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but just relaying what I'm doing.

For just monitoring effort, pace or power work on the Vasa - I strongly suspect the power is just mathematically calculated from the pace or vice-versa, not some whole separate powermeter measurement.

I think the only reason to go specifically with power is if, for example you were going to do bikelike workouts like "80% of FTP effort" or similar, where you go at a percent of a tested power number. (I, however, have not done this.)

I switched to power from pace at one point also because you can set the Vasa to give you dedicated power for each arm pull, whereas you can't do that for pace. I wanted to make sure my left arm wasn't lagging my right in the pull, and thus I made sure their power numbers were comparable if not identical. After doing that, I've stuck with power, but as long as I'm not checking the per arm power, pace would be just as good.

I'm actually trying not to get too caught up in micromanaging the numbers, though. The PM is a bit jumpy, so it's hard to target a specific number as opposed to a range. I just try to increase the load progressively, and use the PM to make sure I don't slack off on intervals or long efforts.


So, I take it you can't see both power and pace at the same time??? IIRC, the Concept 2 rowing erg is similar in that you can see pace or watts or calories, but not all three at same time. Being a "pace guy", I've always gone with pace on the rowing erg. If you monitor power during the workout, can you get your overall avg pace at the end??? I would think that you could as you can on the C2.


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Nice to compare times....

My everyday session is 2000m in around 37.xx. using door settings #4. what door setting are you using?
I guess when I have the time I'll try an hour of vasa swimming. I would imagine my hour would be 3000 and 80mins would be 4000 on settings #4

M


lightheir wrote:
On the Vasa, it says I go 4200 meters of freestyle for 90 minutes. In the pool, I average about 3000yards per hour when I have the lane to myself, which pretty much only occurs if I'm off work for some reason and can get to the pool at some strange hour where it's empty (like 10:30AM on a weekday) so I rarely get to do that.

I know swimmers do a lot of volume and 1500m can be a literal warmup for them, but I think I've got a long way before that occurs; right now, 1500 is def a legit training stimulus for me and can be done in 30mins, either on the Vasa or pool - I'm too time crunched for otherwise, so I'll typically just drop right into a set of 15 x 100 or 8 x 200 on the Vasa, or pool on the rare day where there's no circle swim. (Happens during winter, but in summer season like now, it's always a crappy circle lunch swim, so it's usually a near-random set of 25s to 200s depending on who I'm waiting for and/or trying to swim around, done at a pretty high intensity when I'm actually swimming and not waiting.)


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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There is. I spoke with vasa admin the other month. They are working with Training peaks for obvious reasons. But I would say the current ergo would be update able.

M


mercuryvapor wrote:
Harapnuk wrote:
how do you capture the power data with your 910XT??

I've read online that they are working on ANT integration, and when i talked to the staff last week they said they were still working on it and didn't know when it would be released...


I'm on the fence about ordering one at the moment. If there is ANT integration peakscoming down the pipe, I might just wait. That would be awesome and think they world sell more units.


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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No mono rail which means that the effort pulling on the paddles once does not get the resistance for the band. I find this a benefit pulling against the resistance band. I see a limiter on this
M

mercuryvapor wrote:
I found pics of the Swimfast Ergometer

There's isn't any details and can't find anything else online.

Looks interesting. Anyone have any info or know when this will hit the m against tharket?


age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [COJO] [ In reply to ]
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x2

COJO wrote:
The Swimfast ergometer does look interesting but judging by the other machines the company is marketing....it does not seem to be a budget friendly competitor.



age is just a number after your name
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [AussieMikeinSD] [ In reply to ]
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Pace per/100 and watts is visible. By pacing it can work but will not in the long term, consider this. Over time fitness improves then the pace will become easier, HR will drop therefore the workout effort -perceived effort-PE also becomes an easier PE and you are not developing your engine aerobically. In an ideal training workout it should be consistent and taxing. By developing the PE, the heart is being worked and therefore aerobic engine and the neuromuscular/ nervous system capacity your pace times will slowly fall or climb depending on the sport. Think of it like running. Over time running becomes easier at a pace but your are not working that engine then you must increase the pace/HR/PE to keep growing/improving. Hopefully I have made sense.

You have certainly made sense; my point is simply that using pace is using the bottom line. I guess power is nice to have but who really cares about power in the swim; it's not like the bike where there are established correlations between power and speed. Certainly you could develop these for swimming but why bother, since your pace/100 m is your bottom line. You don't have hills on the swim, which I think is where power really earns its keep, but rather simply increases or decreases in pace. In any given swim workout, I keep my effort pretty much the same, which is as much effort as I can put out given my existing fatigue from previous workouts.




"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Whew! My arms are pretty tired now!

Last 3 weeks of pool+vasa were:
-6hrs
-9hrs
-9.5hrs target this week, have done 8.5 with one day left

My arms feel pretty toasted for the first time in a long time. Like that deep fatigue you get when you're really increasing volume. It's all freestyle, as well, with minimal drills and zero kicking drills. (I barely kick when I swim intentionally, so for now, going to go all pull.)

It seems to be working though - despite the big arm beatdown, I'm both feeling and seeing real improvement and all new PR paces for my MOPish level of swimming. Did a set of about 18 x100yds in the pool 2 days ago with <15sec rest between each, all from 1:25-1:27. Still far from fast, but that's already a 2-3 sec drop at least from 3 weeks ago, and that wasn't even close to an all out effort.

I'll also add that due to the arm beatdown, my training is looking more like a marathon runner workout than a pool swimmer, mainly due to fatigue. Id love to say I can go hard day in day out at that 1:25-7 pace for all of it, but I only save those harder efforts for the short 30min pool sessions. On the vasa, I'm probably going mediocre to easy in effort, but going longer, up to 1hr40mins, so more like a run workout. I used to do even harder stuff on vasa, but at least for now, my arms are simply too tired to keep it up at this volume. I'm optimistic though that if I give it another few weeks, it'll respond like my run legs do to volume, and after adapting, I can start keeping overall high speeds.

To reiterate, the convenience of the Vasa is crazy. I was planning on doing all swimming for 6-8wks, but it turns out that because it's so convenient to do Vasa, I put up 6 hrs of running last week, and will probably put up 6-7 this week. (No biking for now.) So 15-16hrs/week of swim+run training for now, and it actually doesn't feel like a monster time commitment since I just do the Vasa for 60-90 min before bedtime - do that 6 days a week + 2x30min pool and you're at 8-9hrs/week of legit swim training. I can say for sure there is no way I could even do 9 hrs of swim training in a pool logistically with zero bike/run, but it seems so easy that it's like cheating with this machine.

Am looking forward to revisiting a local masters group that I rarely go to, and usually see the same guys in my speed lane - it'll be fun to see if I can significantly outpace them all the next go around.
Last edited by: lightheir: Aug 8, 14 6:47
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I ordered a Vasa ergometer a couple days ago. It will be here on Tuesday.

How long does the assembly take? Easy?

I can't wait to start training with it.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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The assembly is easy, but because the two pieces (rail and the head unit) don't stand up alone on their own, it's a bit unwieldly. I spent an hour doing it carefully with instructions, but if I did it now, it would take me <10 minutes. Don't worry about it at all - it goes together like a piece of cake.

You'll love it - keep in mind your shoulder will take few weeks to get used to the effect of gravity, at least that's what happened to me. I don't notice gravity at all anymore, even over 90 mins, but it was really noticeable for me when I started since pool water reduces gravity to hold your shoulders up.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Whew! My arms are pretty tired now!

Last 3 weeks of pool+vasa were:
-6hrs
-9hrs
-9.5hrs target this week, have done 8.5 with one day left

My arms feel pretty toasted for the first time in a long time. Like that deep fatigue you get when you're really increasing volume. It's all freestyle, as well, with minimal drills and zero kicking drills. (I barely kick when I swim intentionally, so for now, going to go all pull.)
It seems to be working though - despite the big arm beatdown, I'm both feeling and seeing real improvement and all new PR paces for my MOPish level of swimming. Did a set of about 18 x100yds in the pool 2 days ago with <15sec rest between each, all from 1:25-1:27. Still far from fast, but that's already a 2-3 sec drop at least from 3 weeks ago, and that wasn't even close to an all out effort.
I'll also add that due to the arm beatdown, my training is looking more like a marathon runner workout than a pool swimmer, mainly due to fatigue. Id love to say I can go hard day in day out at that 1:25-7 pace for all of it, but I only save those harder efforts for the short 30min pool sessions. On the vasa, I'm probably going mediocre to easy in effort, but going longer, up to 1hr40mins, so more like a run workout. I used to do even harder stuff on vasa, but at least for now, my arms are simply too tired to keep it up at this volume. I'm optimistic though that if I give it another few weeks, it'll respond like my run legs do to volume, and after adapting, I can start keeping overall high speeds.
To reiterate, the convenience of the Vasa is crazy. I was planning on doing all swimming for 6-8wks, but it turns out that because it's so convenient to do Vasa, I put up 6 hrs of running last week, and will probably put up 6-7 this week. (No biking for now.) So 15-16hrs/week of swim+run training for now, and it actually doesn't feel like a monster time commitment since I just do the Vasa for 60-90 min before bedtime - do that 6 days a week + 2x30min pool and you're at 8-9hrs/week of legit swim training. I can say for sure there is no way I could even do 9 hrs of swim training in a pool logistically with zero bike/run, but it seems so easy that it's like cheating with this machine.

Am looking forward to revisiting a local masters group that I rarely go to, and usually see the same guys in my speed lane - it'll be fun to see if I can significantly out-pace them all the next go around.

Great work LH!!! You will be the envy of your Masters lane when you're leading the lane and leaving them in your wake!!! Maybe even move up a lane??? Your Masters friends may all go out and buy Vasa trainers now, in which case you should get a commission:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Heh heh. I'm actually sure some of those guys/gals that I see every time I go (which is only a few times per year) will be shocked to see how much faster I've gotten, which is even more motivation to train! Too bad there are no splash n dashes around here - all the water in Norcal is all dried up and they canceled most of them =(

The only problem for one of the two masters groups I go to - one of them is a general (not triathlete) masters group. Which means I get SLAUGHTERED on everything except freeestyle. I'm literally the slowest of 20 or so swimmers the moment we do breast, back, and kicking. But the moment we hit freestyle, I'm like in upper 25-30% of the group. Makes it hard to place me in a lane there - I often seed myself low for the IM stuff, but if we go to all-freestyle, I push myself up 2 lanes over, causing a bit of confusion in the process.

The triathlon group is much better since it's all freestyle, but yes, I still get slaughtered on the kick sets. I don't go backwards or anything crazy like that, but my all-out pace for a 100yd kickset is 1:48, and if you ask me to do that twice, that'll drop to 2:00+/100yds. And I have no plans on improving that any time soon, not because I think it's worthless, but because you obviously need water to work on that and I'm rarely in the water anymore!
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Now that you've had it for a while, how well do you think it would work as a complete substitute for swimming in the water?

Obviously it would be idea to be spending as much time in the pool, but I'm facing a move that would make that impossible. It looks like in a couple of months I'll moving to the Caucasus region for 3 years and I don't expect to have access to a pool. I'm considering buying a VASA to help maintain swim fitness and maybe even allow me to train for some European races. I'm an okay swimmer (~1:20/100yds) with decent form (for a triathlete), so hopefully I'd have some muscle memory when I finaly do get a chance to get back into the water.



-Andrew
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