Runner 66,
are you still wishing to sell your ergo? perhaps you can PM me

 Now that you mentioned it, it's entirely possible that the Vasa is improving my regular and paddle strokes similarly, its just that my paddle PR times are soft targets not measured during my true PR period which was about 6 months ago (when I didn't use paddles - I just started the paddle work about 2 months prior to the Vasa.) So I guess I should refine my prior statement in that light. Although it is true that I'm now a hair faster with paddles in the water that nonpaddles, which is a weird flipflop in speed for me since paddles normally slow me down. (I use the small ones.)

Well, ya, you should be faster with the pads; I'm about 6 sec/100yd faster but mine are fairly big, the yellow "Strokemaker" model, which is their 2nd biggest. Do you use the pull buoy with your pads??? That's the most common combo for pad use, although lots use the PB by itself, sans pads. I don't usually see just paddles w/o PB, though I'm sure some do that too. You just have to watch shoulder injuries which are more likely with heavy pad use.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've been both with and without pull buoy. Doesn't seem to make any difference for me - I kick less than my already wimpy minimal kick when pulling though.

Interestingly, the Vasa on high resistance doesn't seem to aggravate my shoulder at all, even when pulling all-out hard. It's the high elbow recovery that really does a number on my right shoulder, to the point it's the limiter in my workouts if I swim all-breath right. With the Vasa since the elbow recovery is low (it's like freestyle in reverse no lifting of elbow if you want), I haven't had any problems with my rt shoulder even though I'm going all-out on the pull. I worried about straining my shoulder due to the paddle warnings, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way for me.

I know it sounds weird, but I truly was slower with those small paddles prior to the Vasa, like 6sec/100 slower. My stroke rate immediately dropped and I couldn't pull hard enough to make up for it. Just proves further how lousy my muscular endurance was, even at 1:35/100yd pace for distance. I'm hoping I've got some low-hanging fruit to pick off for swim time in the near future.

Sounds like you're on your way!!! Regarding your shoulder hurting, is it your deltoid??? Both of my "delts" are always the muscles that take the longest to re-adapt to swimming after any long period off. My only long periods off have been due to my 6 USAF deployments to AFG and IRQ. In 2 of the 6, I was gone for a full year with little or no swimming. When I came home on leave, I swam 12 out of the 16 days I was home. Would've swum every day but delts were just too sore!!!

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Unfortunately, for me, the pain isn't the deltoid muscle - my rt shoulder pain is IN the joint, and not at all the muscle, and is a really nasty sharp pain. When it gets bad it's so bad that I can barely lift my arm over my head due to the stinging pain, but it's not the muscle itself. It's forced me to switch to breathing on my weak side since if I swim over 3000/session it gets worse and worse if I stay on my strong side. Most people immediately scream 'technique flaw!' when they hear this, but I've had good coaches look at it and they say my breath-right stroke is better than my left, with better pull & recovery so it's likely due less to a stroke flaw and more to a prior injury (?labral tear in there).

For me, I'd have to say that when I'm out of swim form and come back to it, EVERYTHING gets tired! Delts, lats, rotator cuff, trapezius. It's like my entire arms/back turn to mud. Again, that may be a function of my weak muscular endurance - I wouldn't be surprised that a strong swimmer like yourself would have much more resistance to fatigue in the swim-specific muscles, and thus have deltoid issues (less of a crucial power muscle in freestyle) when you come back since the lats/rotator cuff in you is stronger from your prior experience. Just a hunch.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that your pain is actually in the joint but hopefully if you keep working on the VASA and swimming, eventually it will go away. I think my deltoid pain after time off is mainly due to the fact that it's the one muscle that's hard to reproduce the strain of swimming on w/o actually swimming, e.g. as you've said, the recovery on your VASA is straight back rather than over your shoulder. The same is true when I use my stretch cords rather than actual swimming. I suppose I could do some sort of simulation with a 5-lb weight, i.e. lean over a bench and simulate the freestyle stroke for about an hour or so. If I deploy again, maybe I'll give that one a try, although it might be a tad boring:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Detailed 7 month update from this dedicated Vasa user for anybody interested:

- SUMMARY: Vasa is the real deal. In my experience, they're not overhyping it at all. It works, and works well. Not surprised at all now that it's used and owned by many top swim programs.

- I made real progress with the increased 'swim' volume - 2 mins dropped off my HIM time (and much less fatigue out of water), first time finishing in the upper third of my AG at Vineman 70.3. Was actually weird for me to get into T1 and see most of the bikes still there!

- New PRs on all pool distances. Have dropped a true 5-7sec per 100 off my T-pace since Jan, now below 1:30/100 since using vasa. This is a big deal for me - I was pretty stagnant in the year before getting my Vasa, due to limited pool access and quality of pool time. I've been doing about 4-5hrs/week of pool+vasa, am curious to see what a swim block of 7-9 hrs might do.

- My vasa experience is really making clear the importance of swim fitness on top of technique. You really need both, but I think the fitness is consistently understated by good swimmers who advise MOP or BOPers. The added power and endurance in my arms is really, really obvious to me, and that's just for 7-10sec/100 gained. There is no way in hell that any 2:00/100 swimmer in the pools I swim at would be able to match my arm fitness - they're not slow just because of their suboptimal technique - they have a huge fitness gap. It's so big that I could swim head out of water and still readily beat these slowsters just from swim fitness.

- I feel that Vasa yards = pool yards in terms of efficacy for me. 3000 on the Vasa is as good as 3000 in the pool at same intensity for me. I will admit it's easier to go all-out in a masters swim group with people to push you.

- I still swim about 30-90 mins per week in the pool, in 30 min lunch sessions, averaging about 2 x 30 min sessions per week. I actually don't go aerobically hard in the pool, since it's usually a crappy circle swim. I do it for 'feel ' of the water, and do mainly short 100s on plenty of rest at faster than T-pace. I know from experience this sort of limited training on its own = bad results for me, as I lose swim fitness quickly without hammering short rest sets, but since I'm getting my swim fitness on the Vasa, I've gotten significantly faster. I don't think I need any more than 30mins of pool per week with the Vasa training to maintain my level of swim feel as a MOPer.


- One key workout that I'm finding at my MOP level of swimming as a surpisingly effective workout is a long 90 minute steady state near-continuous Vasa swim. In the pool, I would never do this workout, but it's pretty easy to do on the Vasa, and definitely gives you a big kick to your arm endurance. It makes a huge difference in anything longer, really noticeable in a masters swim I did a few weeks ago that was 60 mins long - in the last 10 mins of the workout, with hard 200s, I was almost lapping people that had kept up with me in my lane earlier because they had faded. I had literally no dropoff in speed at the 60 minute mark and felt great even after blowing it out in the end.

- On the converse, a key workout for my power is all-out 50s on the Vasa. I'll do 2000 or even 3000m, with 50m all-out, 50m rest. Really good with the powermeter to keep you honest.

(continued)


- Any drawbacks/negatives to Vasa? Not many. The cost and size of the machine is the big one. $2k is a lot (not compared to race wheels though!) and it does take up about 10-12 feet of space. Your chest can also get a little sore if you don't move around from time to time, but it's really minor. Also, if you hate being indoors like on a bike trainer, you will probably hate this thing just as much, if not more, so don't buy it if you can't stand your bike trainer or treadmill. (I like indoor training with video entertainment and numeric feedback; without it, it's awful!)

- Any surprising benefits? Actually, a really big one for me - my Vasa doesn't aggravate my shoulders at all. In the pool, whenever I'm over 8k/week, I start getting shoulder pain. At 10+k/wk, it actually becomes the big limiter for me, and it's really frustrating. On the Vasa, I have zero pain at all, even if doing repeat all-out sprint sets. I think the pain is due to the high elbow recovery, which is omitted on the Vasa. I've since switched almost all my hard and long sets to Vasa for this reason, and have been pain-free on it. (I still get the shoulder pain if I crank up pool volume.) One of the Vasa info .pdfs actually says other users experience the same, so apparently I'm not alone. Avoiding this shoulder pain alone is worth the cost of the machine to me, as it opens up a whole new world of swim volume progress to me. Not saying it'll solve everyone's shoulder pain (it won't!) but it's been a godsend for me.

- Would I buy it again? Hell yes. If it broke, I would immediately order another one, and I wish I had bought it years ago. (No, I don't get any commission from Vasa.) I've said it before, but at least for me at my level of swimming, I wouldn't accept an endless pool or in-ground pool even if offered it, as the maintenance-free Vasa is so easy to use and has so much of a smaller footprint, and seems to work for me every bit as well as pool swimming.

I agree with your feedback lightheir, and nice of you to post a lengthy feedback too. Perhaps compare notes and swim efforts. I would like to learn more how our vasa swim training will correlate to pool/race times.

As for myself I am stuck inland with no pool. As I did with my running started a blog I started one for the Vasa blog http://vasaergotraining.blogspot.com.au/ to record my efforts. Like you to document the pros and cons. I am in my 4th week now, and how time flies. Since getting it it has been all about conditioning and building strength in the upper body. I know my aerobic capacity has improved as I know have a good lung capacity and its is great to know every morning my 2000m comes in <40mins swimming which is perfect before work then having that alternate evening for either the run or bike. Physically I feel like a bull....super fit. Using my garmin 910 in other' mode I capture HR and then use the vasa ergo watts, so know I have a good data score in the training peaks/wko using hrTSS scoring in the PMC . The ATL is climbing like the profile of Mt Everest.

My detailed 4 weeks can be seen on the blog

Summary: each week the door setting was increased by one starting at one ad now on 4, it is amazing that I can finish sub 40mins as the setting grows by one. Initially in the week it is hard but on average the week ending on Friday I have no problem completing that 2000m. So much so now that the time when I did start on week one the time was 45.xx now its 35.xx. This weekend and every weekend I will do an indoor triathlon SBR, 2100m swim, 2hr ride then 40-60min run at MP or HMP depending on the build phase using the vasa, computrainer and treadmill.

Times are definitely coming down. My goal is sub 27 by the end of 3 months.
Stroke rate: anything sub 47 is slow, mostly 49-50.
Distance; 2000m every time it is the best use of my time, and like my running and biking I am working on SS or sub85% HIT efforts building endurance. Speed can come in another 2 months. Weekends I will do race like efforts then onto the bike for a brick session finishing before breakfast.
Real swim: None..not yet anyway and haven't done any for more than 2 yrs. yes being thinking of this once this australian winter comes to an end. No fun being suck in a drafty garage at altitude. So the day I go out for a real swim will be a nice sunny day where I can SBR in one session is going to be a treat/reward for the 3.5-4 hrs of swimming each week. And perhaps I might just go the distance this australian summer ad not touch a pool just to prove a point or two

Cost: I bought mine on craigslist $600 plus shipping/boxing and shipping/taxes was nearly $1100. And all worth the cost and 6 moths of trolling CL. I was close to biting the bullet on new. Even thought that buying the trainer version would be the next best thing to the ergo.

Because of the cold a beanie helps the soften the head rest n the mono rail. though lately the beanie is getting to moist, so a towel on the rail takes up the sweat. I have added an old tube loop around my ankles to hold the feet togther enabling more stability in the core and resemble a race like swim.

Ergo. I use the tempo mode almost daily to ensure spm is keeping me honest, then at the conclusion of the WO record the wattage. Over time a matrix will emerge to facilitate better training further down the road....er pool.

---

age is just a number after your name

Geez, you guys are making me want to tap the credit line....... :)


Ah man, forget it. Just went through the checkout for fun to see about shipping. $450 US to ship to Canada!
$2000US, 15% import tax + ship = 2750, then about 10% exchange......over $3k delivered.
Guess its gonna be a set of $60 Stretchcordz for now...

Yes, that's pretty pricey.

I'd see if you can get a bench to lie down on while using the stretch cords. I did it without a bench pretty seriously, and honestly, it didn't help one bit - I suspect with a bench it would be significantly more effective, at least from what I'm experiencing with the Vasa.

I bought one last December and have been using it almost exclusively. I swam once in the pool maybe 2 weeks before eagleman just to be sure that I wouldn't drown.
I swam a little slower at eagleman this year than I did last year, but it wasn't wetsuit legal this year.
my swim at challenge new albany was right about with the others coming out of the water and wasn't bad for me. **I've been in the water 3x this year**
it makes my life way easier. I can hop on before work or after, etc. easier than driving to the pool at 530am and rushing to get to work on time.
I can sit at home and have some coffee then hop on it while watching some espn on the ipod.

---

---------------------------------------
Fruit snacks are for winners

the timing of these posts is awesome... I just pulled the trigger and ordered the Ergo last week, should be delivered tomorrow....

I have a longer running background, so do relatively well there... I have learned to embrace and really make myself suffer on the indoor trainer with TrainerRoad, and have been quite pleased with my bike splits in my two IM's... however, like many triathletes I just struggle with the swim... I've only swam for the last two years, and so am not good by any means (IM splits of 1:31 and 1:27)... because swimming is so technical, I find I pay too much attention to trying to refine my stroke... because of this, I really feel my swim strength/fitness takes a big hit... I just find it so hard to make myself suffer in the pool...

I know the Ergo is not a replacement for actual swimming, but I'm so excited to be able to use the power meter and get in some "structured" swim fitness workouts, without the struggle of breathing...

I paid full price, but had been thinking of buying one for awhile... If it leads to the improvements that you guys allude to, then it will be worth it for me... the ability to train at home is a huge draw too...

thanks to other for posting your reviews!! really enjoy reading them...

Would anyone mind sharing how they are using the power data?

Although I've been capturing it with my Garmin 910xt I'm not 100% sure I understand exactly what I should be looking at.

Also, for those who are capturing their power data are you doing your workouts at one long interval or breaking everything (each set) down individually.

Would love to hear what you folks are doing!!!

Why do you not just monitor your pace??? Speed is the bottom line, no???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

My question was about the power data that's captured. Not pace and speed.

Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but just relaying what I'm doing.

For just monitoring effort, pace or power work on the Vasa - I strongly suspect the power is just mathematically calculated from the pace or vice-versa, not some whole separate powermeter measurement.

I think the only reason to go specifically with power is if, for example you were going to do bikelike workouts like "80% of FTP effort" or similar, where you go at a percent of a tested power number. (I, however, have not done this.)

I switched to power from pace at one point also because you can set the Vasa to give you dedicated power for each arm pull, whereas you can't do that for pace. I wanted to make sure my left arm wasn't lagging my right in the pull, and thus I made sure their power numbers were comparable if not identical. After doing that, I've stuck with power, but as long as I'm not checking the per arm power, pace would be just as good.

I'm actually trying not to get too caught up in micromanaging the numbers, though. The PM is a bit jumpy, so it's hard to target a specific number as opposed to a range. I just try to increase the load progressively, and use the PM to make sure I don't slack off on intervals or long efforts.

There is a new swimming ergometer coming soon - SwimFast: http://kayakpro.com/swimfast/

I'd like to see a comparison.

So, I take it you can't see both power and pace at the same time??? IIRC, the Concept 2 rowing erg is similar in that you can see pace or watts or calories, but not all three at same time. Being a "pace guy", I've always gone with pace on the rowing erg. If you monitor power during the workout, can you get your overall avg pace at the end??? I would think that you could as you can on the C2.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

It defaults to showing both pace and watts simultaneously. It wil also show avg pace or lap pace if you program it to show it.

If you switch to the mode where it shows watts for each arm separately, then it cannot show both pace/watts for each arm simultaneously. I used that mode for awhile to make sure I wasn't getting asymmetric, but now I'm back to the default display.

Just put my 4 year old to bed, and hopped on the Vasa for 90 minutes (watched the Walking Dead and House of Cards, good shows!). It really feels like cheating to be able to get in swimming so painlessly and conveniently. If I'm lucky, I may be able to hit 10 hrs of swim training this week, and my arms/lats are feeling it - if I can keep this up for a few weeks, I'm certain I'll make a jump in swim performance.

how do you capture the power data with your 910XT??

I've read online that they are working on ANT integration, and when i talked to the staff last week they said they were still working on it and didn't know when it would be released...

It defaults to showing both pace and watts simultaneously. It wil also show avg pace or lap pace if you program it to show it. If you switch to the mode where it shows watts for each arm separately, then it cannot show both pace/watts for each arm simultaneously. I used that mode for awhile to make sure I wasn't getting asymmetric, but now I'm back to the default display.

Just put my 4 year old to bed, and hopped on the Vasa for 90 minutes (watched the Walking Dead and House of Cards, good shows!). It really feels like cheating to be able to get in swimming so painlessly and conveniently. If I'm lucky, I may be able to hit 10 hrs of swim training this week, and my arms/lats are feeling it - if I can keep this up for a few weeks, I'm certain I'll make a jump in swim performance

Ah, I see...thanks for the info. So, "how far" do you typically go in your 90 min sessions??? If you could ever get a lane for 90 min where you were just splitting with one other swimmer, it would be interesting to see how your yardage compares in the pool vs on the Vasa. In any case, 10 hrs of all freestyle is quite a bit, prob 25,000 to 30,000 yds or so. That's pretty huge compared to the avg tri guy. You are absolutely correct in your judgment about swim volume being huge. Eventually, you should get to the point where you consider 1500 m as just a warm-up. I will often swim around 5000 yds of freestyle, along with maybe 2000 of other strokes, kicking, etc, and I'm always fastest during the last 1000 free, because I'm good and warmed up. I generally swim the whole 1500 m course as my swim warm-up in an oly dist race, and in a half iron, I'll swim at least 1500 of the 1900 m. In the single iron race I've done, I swam 1000 m for warm-up.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

On the Vasa, it says I go 4200 meters of freestyle for 90 minutes. In the pool, I average about 3000yards per hour when I have the lane to myself, which pretty much only occurs if I'm off work for some reason and can get to the pool at some strange hour where it's empty (like 10:30AM on a weekday) so I rarely get to do that.

I know swimmers do a lot of volume and 1500m can be a literal warmup for them, but I think I've got a long way before that occurs; right now, 1500 is def a legit training stimulus for me and can be done in 30mins, either on the Vasa or pool - I'm too time crunched for otherwise, so I'll typically just drop right into a set of 15 x 100 or 8 x 200 on the Vasa, or pool on the rare day where there's no circle swim. (Happens during winter, but in summer season like now, it's always a crappy circle lunch swim, so it's usually a near-random set of 25s to 200s depending on who I'm waiting for and/or trying to swim around, done at a pretty high intensity when I'm actually swimming and not waiting.)