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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I used one this year because I live about an hour from the nearest pool. I got a great deal on the erg model, but haven't really used the power function. I can tell my improvement because my stroke rate increasing on the different tension settings so I never bothered to figure out the power readings etc.

It was great for me. I used it 2-3 times a week and made it to the pool 1x a week and tried to do an open water swim 1x a week training for an IM. After about 8 weeks of using it I could tell a difference in my swimming. I wasn't able to swim in open water as much as I wanted to and the 1x a week in the pool w/ the vasa got me back to great swimming shape. the last month or so of IM training I made it to a pool 2-3 times because I wanted to feel comfortable in the water (I've had a few panic attacks during swim portion of races).
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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Pedalhead wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Actually, you are losing a huge part of your stroke since you aren't able to recover properly. I've only used the Vasa once for a few minutes but, the idea that swinging your arms forward under the machine is not an issue is not valid. This is the same problem you have with using stretch cords (e.g., surgical tubing), in that to keep a continuous motion you can't recover properly over your shoulder.


The VASA swim erg does simulate a normal feeling arm recovery over the shoulder. You must be thinking of some other swim trainer that requires dog paddling.

I was responding to the specific statement by IKnowEverything that he/she did not recover his/her arms but rather just moved them back and forth.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
That's great it worked for you....hard to argue with the results. I jumped on one about 3 years ago at an expo briefly and it struck me immediately how it disrupted any and all feel in *my* stroke. Most notably b/c whatever kind of recovery I could manage on the Vasa was incredibly restricted due to my flatness on the trainer(thus my comment on forced internal rotation beyond my normal range). When I want to go faster I don't think about pulling harder or faster, but rather increasing the rate of my rotations. Was curious how others made it work for them, thanks for explaining....enjoy your swimming!

The weirdness of the feeling of pulling on the Vasa is the primary memory I can recall from my 5 min on a Vasa at a university I trained for 2 days about 4 yrs ago. I think the more real, in-the-water, swimming a person has done, the harder it is to see the Vasa or other tools such as the stretch cords as anything but a supplement to your regular swim workouts. Top swimmers will swim around 16-20 hr/wk and do dryland training maybe 4 hr/wk, so at most a 4:1 ratio between dryland and in-water training. Obv the Vasa trainer, stretch cords, free weights, etc, are better than nothing if you have very limited access, or no access, to a pool.

Also, when you say "rate of rotations" you mean turnover rate, e.g. strokes/min, right???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Also, when you say "rate of rotations" you mean turnover rate, e.g. strokes/min, right???

Actually no I mean quite a different thing. My core is the motor, not spinning my arms faster. So yes in a way, depends on how you view it. When I want to go faster I think about rotating my core through it's rotational cycle faster, this in turn will result in a faster stroke rate. As opposed to telling myself 'just stroke faster'. It was a very difficult thing for me to overcome with over 20 years of thinking about spinning my arms faster and it used to be so exhausting. It took me a solid year to figure it out completely, but when I figured out how to use my core as my motor swimming became a lot of fun, faster, mo funner. I never 'got it' until I had a coach though...it was mystical unicorns stuff until someone dumbed it down for me with eyes on deck.

It's a total shift in thinking or it was for me at least. It all starts with the kick, kick creates torque which is transmitted to and through the core, the shoulders and upper arms are the transmission and the forearm/hand is where the rubber meets the road. Creating contra-lateral torque across the body timed with the kick. Hope that makes sense I'm terrible at describing things like this.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Also, when you say "rate of rotations" you mean turnover rate, e.g. strokes/min, right???


Actually no I mean quite a different thing. My core is the motor, not spinning my arms faster. So yes in a way, depends on how you view it. When I want to go faster I think about rotating my core through it's rotational cycle faster, this in turn will result in a faster stroke rate. As opposed to telling myself 'just stroke faster'. It was a very difficult thing for me to overcome with over 20 years of thinking about spinning my arms faster and it used to be so exhausting. It took me a solid year to figure it out completely, but when I figured out how to use my core as my motor swimming became a lot of fun, faster, mo funner. I never 'got it' until I had a coach though...it was mystical unicorns stuff until someone dumbed it down for me with eyes on deck.

It's a total shift in thinking or it was for me at least. It all starts with the kick, kick creates torque which is transmitted to and through the core, the shoulders and upper arms are the transmission and the forearm/hand is where the rubber meets the road. Creating contra-lateral torque across the body timed with the kick. Hope that makes sense I'm terrible at describing things like this.

Descriptions are hard but it sounds like you're describing what Gary Hall Sr calls "hip-driven freestyle"??? Which is a bit diff from "shoulder-driven freestyle". I'm more of a shoulder-driven guy myself, due to lack of a strong kick:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I love my Vasa Ergometer; I started using it last January and have seen my triathlon swim times improve through the season. I kept a training log through last winter: http://www.cortthesport.com/p/vasa-training.html That includes links to a series I wrote about "When the Pool is Not an Option". I just don't have time to get to the pool 4 or 5 times a week so for me it's invaluable and extremely time efficient. There are far more impediments to me getting to the pool than outside on the bike or road to run.

As for questions of rotation, my core still engages, and my opposing hip drives into the bench. It's not a problem. In fact, I really didn't understand the importance of the core, and the connection of the pull to the hip, until I started using the Erg and getting that kinesthetic feedback from the bench. The Erg also helped me to develop a better feel for the water. With the resistance of the Vasa power paddles, I was able to figure out that resistance I need to seek in the water. It's not about just sliding your forearm for through the water!

There are many times I am in the pool and thinking of the sensations I get on the Erg and translating those back to the pool.

It's a great training tool - effective, efficient, well made, and smoothly operating!

Cort the Sport | http://www.CortTheSport.com
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [cortthesport] [ In reply to ]
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For those that are interested the Vasa Ergometer is VERY close to being released with ANT+ capability.

I've been in touch with them over the last few months and received an email yesterday that stated the following. "We are very close to launching the new Wireless Power Meter, but don't have all the marketing, documentation, etc. finalized."

Just a heads up for those who are curious.....
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I've had mine since 2008 and its main drawback is that it is worse than a treadmill for boredom, if that is possible. I used to read books or watch movies to keep from losing my mind, but eventually I just snapped from a max of about 50000 meters a months now I dread starting up swimming each year. I bought it because there were no reliable pools and I could not get away anyway with a 2-year old at home so I was able to race off and on without ever going to a pool. In my second year of using it, I had my best non-wetsuit swim ever after like three actual water swims in the pool. I suspect it would have been even better with the wetsuit.
It's a great tool because if you are not using it, it just sits there, unlike maintaining an endless pool or paying for a membership. My experience with it leads me to believe that it is really a fitness tool. If you can't get to the pool and your swim is suffering then it will help. If your form is good from years of swimming, you can likely be a FOP swimmer without ever going to pool. I'm a bad swimmer so my best swim was a 27 min non-wetsuit 1500 after never going to the pool all year.
Chad
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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What kind of work-outs are people doing on them?

Mine is not a VASA, I built my own using a bench and the arm unit from a Nordic track.
I typically try to get 10 to 15 minutes on it on the days that I don't swim. Wondering what else I can do with it.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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Thx for the reply, appreciated!

I do a lot of indoor bike (and run) training already, and am ready to combat boredom during longer yardage endurance sessions with a combo of podcasts and/or movies set to the breathing side of the Vasa.

I just ordered one. I'm really hoping to use it to nearly double my swim 'volume' by adding on top of my current measly 8k/wk pool yardage. I don't swim enough not because of lack of desire, but as most folks, it's due to the painful logistics of pool access which makes it nearly impossible.

I'll be swimming today for 40 minutes (in water) during my lunch break at the local YMCA - sharing the 'FAST' lane (yes, it's clearly marked) with 2 other swimmers who swim slower than 2:00/100 (I'll be at 1:30-5/100) and are nearly clueless when it comes to yielding at the wall to a faster swimmer. Yeah, it's going to be a quality workout, not.

That VASA can't get here soon enough for me!
Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 22, 13 11:47
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [Rambler] [ In reply to ]
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In terms of workouts, mine are every bit as diverse as what I do in the pool, and more. What's nice is having that feedback on stroke rate, power (Left and Right balance), lap splits, etc.

What do I do: long swims, intervals, build sets, time trials, power pulls, drills, one-arm swimming, "fartleks". I did a pilot training program on the Erg with Coach Eric Neilsen and a week's worth of workouts took two pages. I enjoy that level of detail. It's never boring, and always a challenge. No, I'm not watching Netflix while I'm doing it, but I'm mopping up the floor when I'm done and confident that I got the most out of my time on it!

Cortney

Cort the Sport | http://www.CortTheSport.com
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [IKnowEverything] [ In reply to ]
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Thought I would chime in here. The VASA Erg is definitely the best swim-specific strength/fitness workout you can get without water. I have been a big fan for years...starting with the VASA swim bench. I am also currently working with VASA to try to make the ERG even better. We have added four features to the current ERG model: 1) head rest to insure proper body position 2) rotating bench to help teach the proper motion while swimming 3) hand/wrist pads on posts to help teach/strengthen high elbow (EVF) pulling motion with additional resistance available and 4) leg shock cords to work the kick motions along with the upper body.

You can see a youtube video of this prototype and we are building these on a custom order basis through The Race Club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE0QpSeKYrQ


Gary Sr.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [garyhallsr] [ In reply to ]
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garyhallsr wrote:
Thought I would chime in here. The VASA Erg is definitely the best swim-specific strength/fitness workout you can get without water. I have been a big fan for years...starting with the VASA swim bench. I am also currently working with VASA to try to make the ERG even better. We have added four features to the current ERG model: 1) head rest to insure proper body position 2) rotating bench to help teach the proper motion while swimming 3) hand/wrist pads on posts to help teach/strengthen high elbow (EVF) pulling motion with additional resistance available and 4) leg shock cords to work the kick motions along with the upper body.

You can see a youtube video of this prototype and we are building these on a custom order basis through The Race Club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE0QpSeKYrQ


Gary Sr.

Ok, I SERIOUSLY hope they are paying you commission for making that post. Biased or unbiased, I don't think anyone on the planet is going to argue about the validity of swim training with Vasa if it's coming from Gary Sr!

(This post is permanently bookmarked in my triathlon links now.)

Also, you better not be coming out with that new model in the next year. I'll be pissed if I just spent $2k for a swim erg that's going to be obsolete in <1yr! =+)
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [garyhallsr] [ In reply to ]
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garyhallsr wrote:
We have added four features to the current ERG model: 2) rotating bench to help teach the proper motion while swimming


Gary Sr.


Wow Gary thanks for chiming in, long time follower of the Hall clan. Grew up just north of Bloomington near the Morgan Monroe State Forest and have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours at the IUOP as a little tyke.

This project you are undertaking is huge and if you can get the rotating bench aspect of the Vasa worked out I'd be inclined to buy one simply b/c I'm a cold weather wimp. Yea I live in Florida, but with no heaters during the winter it still gets cold darnit! Is there any kind of email update or something you might be putting up on TRC with new mods/tweaks as the Vasa progresses? I have always felt the Vasa could be fantastic for me during the winter months, but could never get past the board flat posture enough to where I felt I'd want to spend that much money on one.

I'm no longer into multi-sport and have gone back to the pool full time so the fly application was especially of interest. Very few coaches teach kicking up and down with fly, just two down kicks. My coach brought this to my attention about 2 years ago and it's been huge for my fly. I can clearly see the Vasa demands some sort of upkick with the fly application and this could be a great adjunct to my dryland classes. Exciting!

Go IU! Looks to be a bit of a rough season for bball with the new youngsters, but I know Tom will get them together.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Nov 23, 13 2:08
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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As a coach, it is great for teaching some of the basics to the beginner and reinforcing things with the more experienced swimmer. Athletes who have early season races, but live in cold climates can benefit greatly as it allows you to simulate open water training conditions aka... no walls to push off of.
The power meter allows the swimmer to do some functional threshold testing to determine proper training paces. It is a great time saver for those that live far from a pool, don't have a pool to train in at all or just trying to fit in your training around all the other things life has to offer. Plus, if you can not get in the water due to injury, you can maintain a high level of fitness by doing some modified pool sets on the Vasa Erg.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [coacheric] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reply coacheric and Gary Sr.

Quick question for coacheric (or Gary if still around) - do you find that beginner swimmers almost invariably have wimpy arm power on the powermeter? Or do you frequently see 2:00+/100yd pool swimmers who can somehow crank out much faster 'virtual paces' on the Vasa? (Like the Vasa reading 1:35/100yds for that same 2:00+/100 swimmer, or that slow swimmer throwing up watts in the range of a competitive fast swimmer.)

Just asking as it seems logical that if you're a slower swimmer, but your Vasa power is matching up near your slow pace, it would suggest that a significant limiter to your ability to swim fast is not necessarily technique, but just as importantly, the inability to even generate enough power to go that fast, even if you had perfect technique. (My arm power really sucks for sure - paddles are rough for me.)
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, very common for the beginner swimmer to lack the ability to generate swim specific power. One of the benefits to training on the Erg is the swimmer can learn what it is like to feel power in the pull phase of the stroke. Combine that with learning to accelerate hand speed through the pull and swim times will start coming down for sure.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Can anyone comment on using the Halo Swim Trainer as a less expensive alternative to the Vasa trainer?

I currently own a bench that I can add the Halo conversion kit to for $125 as opposed to $1600 for the Vasa ERG.

http://lanegainer.com/...HALO-swim-bench.html

Thanks......
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Saw this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. I've had an erg for about two years now and the simple fact is IT WORKS. It is an amazingly effective training resource. I'm not a big numbers guy so I don't have the empirical data. But we all know swimming is a sport that when you're improving and swimming well, you feel it. You feel better moving through the water, you feel the efficiency of your stroke and you make your intervals faster.

This is exactly how I felt after just a couple of weeks mixing in the erg to my pool workouts. And it's not just a "time saving device." I truly feel better using the erg than if I just put in pool volume. I know because I've gone through spurts of just doing pool work. During these spurts I feel slower and weaker. As soon as I get back on the erg a few times I feel power and stamina coming back. Of course, it is very important to pay attention to form on the erg (they have some great video on their site).

Ever had your local pool go out of service? You know that anxiety-filled calculation you make as to how many swim workouts you're going to miss? Well, that's happened a few times this year. Knowing I've had the erg is like mental Valium. There were three, two week stretches in which my pool was being worked on. I did three erg workouts per week during this down time. When I got back in the water, I felt like I had lost nothing (my flip turn was off a bit).

Anyway, love Vasa's erg!
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [DKolker] [ In reply to ]
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DKolker wrote:
Saw this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. I've had an erg for about two years now and the simple fact is IT WORKS. It is an amazingly effective training resource. I'm not a big numbers guy so I don't have the empirical data. But we all know swimming is a sport that when you're improving and swimming well, you feel it. You feel better moving through the water, you feel the efficiency of your stroke and you make your intervals faster.

This is exactly how I felt after just a couple of weeks mixing in the erg to my pool workouts. And it's not just a "time saving device." I truly feel better using the erg than if I just put in pool volume. I know because I've gone through spurts of just doing pool work. During these spurts I feel slower and weaker. As soon as I get back on the erg a few times I feel power and stamina coming back. Of course, it is very important to pay attention to form on the erg (they have some great video on their site).

Ever had your local pool go out of service? You know that anxiety-filled calculation you make as to how many swim workouts you're going to miss? Well, that's happened a few times this year. Knowing I've had the erg is like mental Valium. There were three, two week stretches in which my pool was being worked on. I did three erg workouts per week during this down time. When I got back in the water, I felt like I had lost nothing (my flip turn was off a bit).

Anyway, love Vasa's erg!

OP here.
My local YMCA pools just closed for 2+ weeks. Last year, the Y closest to my workplace where I do 90% of my swimming was closed for unexplained reasons for 3 MONTHS and a lost nearly all of my swim ability and took another 2 months to even get back to near where I was before it closed.

Anyway, appreciate the post - my Vasa is scheduled to arrive this Friday via FedEx and it can't get here soon enough. I've just been so maddeningly frustrated with pool access here between the circle swim folks who have no clue what they're doing (I have to circle swim almost every time I go with 2+min/100 swimmers) and limited access hours, not to include the inevitable winter shutdowns.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck! I know you'll love it.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW my "pace" on the vasa is a lot slower than in the pool. eg it's pretty tough for me to hit 1:35/100m on the vasa, about the same effort that I use to hit 1:25/100m in the pool. I have no idea what that means, either I am weak on the vasa or streamlined in the water! I'd be interested if you have the same experience once yours arrives.

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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robgray wrote:
FWIW my "pace" on the vasa is a lot slower than in the pool. eg it's pretty tough for me to hit 1:35/100m on the vasa, about the same effort that I use to hit 1:25/100m in the pool. I have no idea what that means, either I am weak on the vasa or streamlined in the water! I'd be interested if you have the same experience once yours arrives.

I'll be certain to report back. Thx again for chiming in here. Between you (you've kicked my behind several times in Norcal races in the past few years, not that I'm even ever in visual range ha!), Gary Sr, and the others, I'm really encouraged that this may be at least a decent partial solution to my lack of pool time and access.
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Vasa ERG and am curious which sized bench is best? I'm 5'10" and know that they offer a standard (35") as well as XL (45"). I was told the longer bench is recommended for longer workouts am curious if anyone can attest to this.

Thanks!
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Re: Still any VASA swim erg users out there? [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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My pace per 100 m on the VASA is also a LOT slower than in the water for the same effort, probably 10-15 s/100 when working hard, and more like 20 s/100 when going easy. Oh, and I have found that the VASA does not penalize for swimming with a dropped elbow. In fact it is possible to have a much faster pace on the VASA by swimming with almost straight arms - swimming this way in the water increases drag and requires higher effort for the same speed.
Last edited by: Scott_B: Nov 27, 13 7:16
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