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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [BenLeese] [ In reply to ]
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I've been an Contador fan since his '07 Paris-Nice win and also an Armstrong fan (but not a LA nut-hugger). I'm actually hoping for a Schlek overall win so we could have a great AC/AS rivaly for the next 10 yeras.

I am so disappointed in what AC did today. And unfortunately, I have to hear all the LA nut-huggers say "I told you so" for a while.

Go Andy!

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Except that it never played out like that in the past.

Remember when Ullrich rode his bike into a ditch, and Lance sat up and waited on the descent?

Remember when the spectator caught Lance's handlebars with the Mussete bag and Ullrich, Tyler and the others waited?

Remember when Lance went across the field after Beloki's crash? The guys following eased up to let him get back on the group.

Alberto instigated the attack. He rode by Andy, who had come to a complete stop - it was obvious he had a mechanical. The fact that Andy had attacked first is a moot point. The bottom line is that it's unethical (in bike racing terms) to take advantage of the MJ because of a crash or mechanical. Had Contador waited like he should have, he could have signaled Menchov and Sammy to ease up. In that instance they would have not have ridden away from him, as Contador is one of the patrons of the peleton. His counterattack though indicated that riding hard was kosher, and so Menchov and Sammy followed. That said, I find it equally slimy that they pushed the pace as well. AC was not alone in the wrong-doing.

That said, I think the boos during the jersey presentation were a pretty good indication of how the move is seen in the eyes of the public.

As for the cobbled stage to Ardennes, mechanicals, crashes, flats and equipment selection are considered part of the race. Logical or not, it's the exception to an otherwise golden rule in the pro peleton.

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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AC was already hammering because AS had attacked. It's not like AS and AC were riding, AS's chain dropped and AC went. It was a counter attack to AS's attack.


I agree that AC was going hard to close that little gap, but it sure looked to me that AC gunned it again at a point when he had to have known that AS dropped his chain. I still don't see the comparison to Stage 3.




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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Jocke] [ In reply to ]
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Just saw the stage live and to me it looked like AS attacked AC because he was trapped in (dick move?) and Vino started chasing him. Then AC reacts and do a counter attack, AS is still on his bike and i donīt think anyone looks at the chain as you pass. Small road and lots of people. Then AC hears on the radio that AS have problem and slows down, you can see him riding and looking back all the way to the top. When he AC can see that AS is riding again he continues to ride. I think AC did the right thing, he could have put a lot more time on AS but didnīt. You canīt expect the riders to wait for each other all the time since you only got a few stages to make a difference and i think itīs fair AS lost some time because this "mechanical" is probably his own fault.

EXACTLY. Well observed.

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [BenLeese] [ In reply to ]
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Let me say further....

Looking back on another website, you can clearly see a set of photos that show that AC attacked KNOWING on the mechanical.

Also keep in mind what was said yesterday(?) by AC himself "Andy and I marked each other we are not worried about SS & DM"

So now he clearly attacked when the mechanical went down. I'm sorry, but this is what it looked like.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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For decades the top-end European (now international) pros have always followed the omerta that contenders do not take advantage of another's misfortune. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of this code being honored. Other sports (auto racing) may treat a mechanical as tough luck, but every TdF rider, every coach, every director sportif, every swanieur (sic) knows the right thing to do. That Contador didn't do it is confirmation to me of just who he is.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [spirogeek] [ In reply to ]
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I think its a borderline dick move, but then again, didn't Saxo neutralize the field when Schleck was in trouble and then the next day when another GC contender (may have been Lance, pre crashes) was in trouble the picked up the pace?

If that's the case I would have went too.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.

You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


The stage doesn't play out the same way if the group goes over the top together. I also think Schleck stays with the group by following others' lines (like AC did) versus having to take the line himself.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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contador could have shown some leadership and stood them down, thats what a true champion would have done. lots of new shleck fans today, no doubt.

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


Exactly!!!! Other people are talking of waiting after a crash, this was a dropped chain and totally different. In my mind if AS so strong then he should have been able to catch AC after getting going again. The only person to blame is the mechanic of Saxo.

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [offrhodes] [ In reply to ]
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And AC is going to easily beat him in the Time Trial

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.

No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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You mean waited while Menchov and Sanchez rode away from him?

All 3 of them knew he was having a mechanical, impossible not to, and all 3 attacked. All 3 should have waited, IMO. Uncool on all their part, IMO, and not just AC's part. But I agree that if Menchov and Sanchez went then Alberto had to go too.


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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [uli] [ In reply to ]
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Just saw the stage live and to me it looked like AS attacked AC because he was trapped in (dick move?) and Vino started chasing him. Then AC reacts and do a counter attack, AS is still on his bike and i donīt think anyone looks at the chain as you pass. Small road and lots of people. Then AC hears on the radio that AS have problem and slows down, you can see him riding and looking back all the way to the top. When he AC can see that AS is riding again he continues to ride. I think AC did the right thing, he could have put a lot more time on AS but didnīt. You canīt expect the riders to wait for each other all the time since you only got a few stages to make a difference and i think itīs fair AS lost some time because this "mechanical" is probably his own fault.


EXACTLY. Well observed.

Attacking your rival because he isn't in proper position is a dick move. You can't be serious.

Watch the replay there is no shifting when the mechanical happens. This was not Andy's fault. Andy was almost to a complete stop when Alberto passed him, so there is no way that Alberto didn't know that there wasn't a problem. Alberto should have waited for Andy to return to the group and not return to riding. That was a classless move by Alberto and the rest of the riders in his group.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [shumphries] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.


No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.

You seriously have no clue.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.

No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.

You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.


No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.


You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?

Ha, you obviously haven't taken may 50mph twisty descents before. I have. Drafting, my ignorant friend, is far less important than bike handling. If you think AC got 30 seconds from drafting on a downhill like that I suggest you take your aerobars off and ride a real bike for a change.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.


No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.


You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?


Ha, you obviously haven't taken may 50mph twisty descents before. I have. Drafting, my ignorant friend, is far less important than bike handling. If you think AC got 30 seconds from drafting on a downhill like that I suggest you take your aerobars off and ride a real bike for a change.

I noticed you didn't say anything about following the lines of great descenders like Sammy Sanchez during the descent. You really have no basis for an argument because you are flat out wrong.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [trimick] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.


No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.


You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?


Ha, you obviously haven't taken may 50mph twisty descents before. I have. Drafting, my ignorant friend, is far less important than bike handling. If you think AC got 30 seconds from drafting on a downhill like that I suggest you take your aerobars off and ride a real bike for a change.


I noticed you didn't say anything about following the lines of great descenders like Sammy Sanchez during the descent. You really have no basis for an argument because you are flat out wrong.

And I saw Contador carving out many of the great lines too. Especially early in the descent when they put a lot of time into AS
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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You look even dumber than normal when it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about.

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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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The bad thing for Contador is, even if he wins the TT by 2 minutes over Schleck, even if he gains time over AS in the mountains, people will only remember this incident as why he won. I wonder if he'll get booed in Paris?

I'm not a big fan of AC, I see him and Lance as the last two of the previous generation that have had major success while almost cleanly shedding their past ties to doping.
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.


You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.


No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.


You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?

Ha, you obviously haven't taken may 50mph twisty descents before. I have. Drafting, my ignorant friend, is far less important than bike handling. If you think AC got 30 seconds from drafting on a downhill like that I suggest you take your aerobars off and ride a real bike for a change.

Haha...right...

A group of 5 all working cohesively together goes down a mountain faster than a group of 3, where one is sitting on, another is visibly cooked, and the other is doing 90% of the work.

Each time you see AS tucking and coasting is costing him time, as the group up the road is always driving the pace. The slingshot effect of drafting from guys working together downhill is astounding, as it enables them to maintain a speed which is significantly faster than what one guy can do. There were numerous times when they would show AS tucked and AC's group was working together. This is how most of the time was lost.

At the level these guys ride at, descending and drafting are what determine how fast they go downhill. Go back and watch it again. The AC group is tight together, as they are sling-shotting past each other to constantly keep a high speed. They kept the best descenders on the front to take the best lines. The other competent descenders took turns rotating through. The less competent guys followed lines. Its not like AC's group dropped anybody out of it. What makes you think AS would have been different, getting gapped off and then dropped?
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Re: Stage 15 (spoiler) [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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Just drop it. You are looking like a complete noob. Regardless of everyone's position on Contador's move you are the only one arguing he wouldn't have stayed with him on the downhill. Heh...they just decended together in the Alps...why didn't Contador just easily ride away?

Why am I discussing this non-point? GAH.
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