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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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one other thought; I have not done a race with these type of AG starts before and I wonder if that is not part of the problem. Lots of testosterone all in one place with womens wave just before and after.

Also I would reconsider where the relay waves are started. It only takes 1-2 strong relay bikers who disregard drafting rules to work together and next thing you know there are 15-20 AG'ers caught up in the train. I would put the relay wave right after Elite;s
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [swimfan] [ In reply to ]
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Swimfan - clearly I'm not about myself but bettering triathlon - that is what the other post was about. I personally know Adrienne and she has a ton of talent, but she also has an obligation to the sport and as a sponsor/team athlete/business owner it reflects poorly upon her, her sponsors, her team and her business. When you get so greedy/competitive there is a greater and greater chance of being found out or at least people getting suspicious in this case it was too much. I'm not pissed off about it and I can sleep well tonight - I know I did a draft-free event and that is what matters to me. I could care less about my award, I didn't bother to pick it up - but it may have mattered to someone out there. Someone who deserved the victory in that division or the overall race.

I often hear people make comments like "it is supposed to fun", but you have it wrong. Triathlon is very competitive, some people may do it for fun but others have other goals sponsors, money, fame, kona, bragging rights...etc. And at this point it is potentially taking that away from someone else. To be clear, I can't in fact evoke guilt on this person you are correct - but drafting or stories of drafting are like porn - "you simply know it when you see it/hear it". Swimfan are you saying you are in favor of drafting??? I just want to clarify things. Also to clarify things I didn't have an off day, I still smoked Adrienne just not on the bike which I have every other time racing against her.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a fan of this relay stuff at all - I think it has no reason in the bigger races whatsoever. The smaller races fine, but these bigger races it just makes a cluster of things. Space out the waves and figure out a permanent penalty system. Watch people longer, tape it, make a judgment call, review and if necessary suspend the athlete from USAT races for 1 year.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sppnet] [ In reply to ]
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If you know her go tell her face.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sppnet] [ In reply to ]
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cant disagree re: the relay thing. Like I said if you watched some of the trains you would note they were led by 1-2 people who had bike only kits on (bike shorts/top etc etc). A lot of folks then get caught up because:

a) they are cheaters
b) they don't realize they are in a draft or how powerful it can be (i would pass riders even in my slow state and 5 miles later here they come on the train)
c) as your tasty MPH keeps climbing beyond what you are capable of yourself it becomes hard to go back to solo riding and reality.....so you convince yourself that you really are capable of riding 22-23 mph all the time......
d) some combination of above
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [linhardt] [ In reply to ]
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HFP - count us out next year. Between the ridiculous times, drafting, and the short swims we had enough.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
1st FEMALE Overall: AG'er who beats Lisa Bentley bike split
2nd FEMALE Overall: AG'er goes 4:23 today (but in 2008 went 4:41; 4:53 in 2007)
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Matt and Adrienne Amman



Matt Amman
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sppnet] [ In reply to ]
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From the local coverage of the race: http://www.journaltimes.com/...b6d3d35742293024.txt

Saeger prevails despite problem with timing chip BY PETER JACKEL
pjackel@journaltimes.com Monday, July 20, 2009 12:17 AM CDT

RACINE — A phantom champion is what Adrienne Saeger was.

After almost deciding to bypass the Spirit of Racine Triathlon following an uninspiring (for her) race, Saeger traveled to Racine from her Naperville, Ill., home for Sunday’s event. The plan was to sort of cool out from some recent frustration at the Hyvee Marathon in West Des Moines, Iowa, by entering as an age group athlete instead of in the elite class and just allowing everything else to take care of itself.

Afterward, she was trying to explain how she won her first-ever half triathlon with a body that seemingly responded effortlessly to all she asked of herself. That is, after she and her husband, Andy, convinced race officials that she had, indeed, won the race.

The 30-year-old Saeger won the women’s portion of this event, which started and ended at Racine’s North Beach, with a time of 4:22.57. Michelle Lanouette was second (4:23.35) and Loren Schechter was third (4:23.57).

“I raced Elite the last two races that I did and this race, I decided to do just last Monday,” said Saeger, who operates her own yoga studio in Naperville. “I didn’t taper for the race. I was using it just as a training race so I said, ‘I’ll just run age group because I’m not rested for it and I’m just using it as training.’ ”

If Saeger wasn’t at her best mentally, she sure was physically.

“The whole time I was on the bike, I kept saying to myself, ‘Is this seriously happening?’ ” Saeger said. “Every time I would go a little harder and think my legs were going to burn out, they’d just snap right back.”

But even after such an impressive morning, which included placing 44th overall in the bike race (2:21.44) and 75th in the run (1:33.27), Saeger didn’t initially realize she was the women’s champion.

“When I finished the race, my husband said, ‘I think you won,’ ” she said. “I said, ‘OK, cool!’ So we go and look at results and my name wasn’t on there at all. So we went over to the race director and he said, ‘There just might be a problem with the timing chip.’

“My husband asked if he was going to be able to finish that by the time awards were done. The race director said, ‘I’m not sure,’ and my husband said, ‘It’s kind of a big deal because we think she won, like the whole race.’ ”

Saeger was eventually verified as the overall women’s champion. She finished nearly nine minutes ahead of the next runner in the Female Elite Division — Catherine Lee of Minneapolis, Minn., had a time of 4:31.30 and Julie Hull of Farmington, Minn., was just behind her in 4:31.41.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Chicked would be putting it nicely - I was emasculated.

I've got no problem with being "chick'd," but I do have an issue being beaten by cheaters.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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As for the article I like "I didn’t taper for the race. I was using it just as a training race because I’m not rested for it and I’m just using it as training".... Ya that is how I describe 56 miles at 23.8 MPH, but may be we have a little C-Well brewing here.
Last edited by: sppnet: Jul 19, 09 23:09
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [linhardt] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Swim was walkable the buoys were slow close to shore. For sections I had to shallow my stroke to avoid scraping against the bottom.
Another reason I love OW ocean swims, god I hate lakes, those things creep me out too much shit and sludge. The worst are cedar water lakes, reddish brown and murky , always waiting to hit an old submerged washer and dryer.

___________________________________________________
I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Scott, I would like to hear Shannon's reply if you would be so kind to post it. I am considering an email to them myself. I think they should know so that they can try to improve the race. Also, I am glad to see that even in the midst of complaints people still have several good comments about HFP.

As to the drafting. I am completely suprised that this one large draft group got around to so many people. It sounds exactly like the group that went over top of me. One classic moment came when one of the women hanging onto the back of that group slowed to get water at an aid station. I rode through that particular aid station. She realized she was getting left and busted her hump to get back to the back of the train where life was easy again. I saw her later on the run. She was a lap behind me and it gave me satisfaction to no end.

chris

"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [thetodd] [ In reply to ]
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Just for clarification this was Lake Michigan. It is not some dingy, stagnant inland lake. It is as close to the Ocean as we get around here.

chris

"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [chiro18] [ In reply to ]
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Me too - I don't think I will be coming back next year. As the non-winning women's winner (hey, at least I got to break the tape), I was dismayed to see the times posted on the bike by the other ladies. Whether they drafted on purpose or not, riding behind & passing tons of other cyclists is a huge advantage. It was fairly isolate on the course when I rode... a few groups of men, but nothing much. Why have an elite/pro wave when they just pick winners from the AGs? And the real pisser is that they only had size L shirts at 3:30 when I picked up my packet ;) At least the almond kringle I brought back from Racine is excellent.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [Aunt Em] [ In reply to ]
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And the real pisser is that they only had size L shirts at 3:30 when I picked up my packet ;)

I talked to Shannon at the bike check in and mentioned that. He said he would be back in the Ohio office by Wednesday morning and contact them via email. It appears they are going to have a reorder or something like that. Normally I would not care, but the shirt is white technical which I like during summer runs. Last years was black and I have doubts whether I will ever wear that as I mostly run in the dark or in the heat of the sun both of which are not conducive to dark colors obviously for different reasons. In the winter I wear long-sleeve.

Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
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Post deleted by aditri [ In reply to ]
Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [aditri] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for posting your side of the story.

Congratulations on going to qualifying for kona at IMWI last year where you rode a 5:53. WIth the way you rode yesterday, I bet you can probably go a 5:20 or faster at Kona this year and probably crack 10 hours. The way you rode and ran I fully expect that you will be in contention for the amatuer WC title (last years winner was 9:55)

Last year I went a 9:46 at IMWI, and you outsplit me on the bike yesterday by 2 minutes - so I think you definately have a good shot.


Maybe that puts our perspective a little in perspective.


P.S. It's interesting that I didn't see a similar time drop on the bike from other contestants at NO 70.3...unless you are referring to a different race.

Seriously though - good luck at Kona - it is a great experience.
Last edited by: sentania: Jul 20, 09 6:41
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [aditri] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Hello to all of you who are calling me out (SAEGER) as a drafting cheater. Thanks, that's really awesome. First off, calling me out as a "phantom" winner like I have never raced in my life is a little over the top. I'm going to Kona this year after qualifying in my first Ironman at Wisconsin last year and I've won my age group in the last two 70.3 distance races I've done. My last race I did was the hilliest course I've ever ridden and so for me to have a time drop like that is not that unusual to be honest. I've been training my @ss off since January to get ready for Kona. The reporter failed to mention that. That is why I didn't walk into this race rested. I mentally said to myself to leave it all out there on the bike. Burn my legs out, and then whatever I have in the tank on the run, use it. I happen to be a better runner off the bike than running on fresh legs. Weird, I know but that's just how it works for me.
As for the bike course... there was NO WAY that you couldn't draft a little, and maybe a lot in some cases. However, if it happened it wasn't intentional. You seriously couldn't go anywhere. I was getting fired up because I felt amazing and there were people holding me back. That doesn't work for me. The roads were what, maybe 12 feet across and at times there were 5 bikes across. I screamed at packs several times to move over or pass. I passed an entire pack of MEN at least twice on the left going into the other lane of traffic to prove my point. I had a guy on the course tell me that I was fast so it wasn't like I was just sandbagging. Thanks to that guy #694, for acknowledging my efforts. Thanks to the guy in the blue outfit who acknowledged me on the run course for an awesome bike...And to all the guys on the forum who acknowledged they got "chicked." For the rest of you who can't accept it, I'm sorry.

There were several girls, that were nonpros, right behind me. They were good girls too - tough and also noncheaters. They were riding hard, we were pushing each other out there.

Two things that need to happen - 1) they need to widen the lanes available for this race to lessen this drafting problem and lessen the chance for an accident - it was rough out there, and 2) they should continue to hand out all these penalties. 3) measure the freaking swim course. How many times I have we all heard already, "not to make you feel bad, but the swim was short" and it's only been one day is a major annoyance.

~SAEGER
I sat up and let the whole pack that you were mixed up in ride past. So yes, it was possible not to ride in a pack. I hung well off the back, and kept pace, eventually repassing the whole pack the last 6 miles on the shot back into T2 as a few turns broke up the draftfest. I may have lost :30 to 1:00 off my bike time, but I rode it legally.

I was the guy in the green jersey on the Felt cursing at the whole pack when it blew past, 3 wide, with 1/2 a bike length between wheels at about mile 40'ish.

I have no doubt that you're a strong rider and you're definitely a stronger runner than I am. But to claim that drafting was unavoidable is a cop out. You don't have free reign to ride the pace you want to ride at all times. There are rules that have to be obeyed, about dropping back, etc. I had a guy edge past my wheel at the bottom of a hill and then slow on the climb. I had to slow down a lot more than I wanted to drop back enough before repassing, but that's the rules that I agreed to follow when I signed up for the race.

--
I ride Felt.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sppnet] [ In reply to ]
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I started the bike in 7th place in the first wave. I shit you not, I saw the draft marshal 5 times on the bike and only saw 4 other athletes on their bikes! In the entire 56 miles!! Why the hell were they watching me? Most of the race I didn't even see anybody in front of me!!



"I've sold my soul to Ironman."
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [aditri] [ In reply to ]
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I originally interpreted the article as "I decided not to race elite this year because I wanted to have some of the fun drafting." And now you say that there was now way that you couldn't draft? Yes there was, you could have and should have raced elite, or done as coredump did and sat up. I also saw you blatantly drafting in a pack. Maybe you passed a couple packs, but you definitely weren't passing anyone when I saw you. Next time you feel like drafting in a race, maybe you shouldn't forget that you have your last name in capital letters across your ass.

Isn't Sarah Demerly part of that same tri team? That figures.
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [swimfan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So you got "chicked" and now assuming the winner was drafting? I don't know my FTP but if that helps my dick is 7 inches and a lot of female athletes passed me. It wasn't your day was it? First the Tshirt now getting chicked. ;-)

It's a race it's supposed to be fun, there are a lot of other things to be pissed off.
Well this is very rich coming from someone who was smack in the middle of a pack when he passed me (a chick).

Tweet WattsUpKarin Blargh
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [PinkCrush] [ In reply to ]
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PinkCrush 1 : swimfan 0
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [IN Elite racing] [ In reply to ]
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As a side note to this - I finally understand and tend to agree with the whole seperate start for Pros/elite at IM. Should just make it a Pro/IM slot contenders instead...
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I was just a few spots back from you (which I'm really proud of!) and agree with you totally. I am sending an email as well.



"I've sold my soul to Ironman."
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [Aunt Em] [ In reply to ]
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Were you wearing a red Gear West top yesterday? If so - congrats on a great race! I could see you up the road for most of the bike - finally caught up around mile 45 (Litespeed Saber/white Team Magellan top). You rode strong and clean all day. Oh yeah - they don't just pick AG winners for the elite wave - I was in it, and haven't won crap there. I chose to race master's elite in order to avoid all the drafting in the AG wave - worked out perfectly, as we had open quiet roads all day, and the marshalls were all over the front of the race. No wonder the MOP and AG waves were such a cluster out there. Apparently, the motorcycles rolled in with the top 25 or so, and called it a day.

_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com
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Re: Spirit of Racine -- another way short swim [aditri] [ In reply to ]
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Great on you for posting. I was there and saw much of the race (from ground zero) and was helping the Dismount area where every single person who went past the line got 4min.

Now, what I think that MANY people here are not looking at is the fact that the RD and HFC cant, let alone the fact that it is not their job to "prevent" drafting. That job is up to us - each of us on the course, and the USAT to enforce. People are going to ride how they are going to ride and the USAT needs to put some meat into the breaking of rules.

After the race yesterday the typical AG joke was (and I heard this more than once) - "Just take 4min off your time to get your real time". I was dumbfounded and did speak with one woman who said this. I was near the First Aid station when they made the announcement that they were waiting on the USAT to give the over all results due to the numbers. There was a group sigh as folks complained there were too many given. I said to one woman who was complaining that "maybe the AG's should learn to follow rules and they would not need to worry about it" - her comment was "I was not here to race.....so, why was she there? (No I dont want an answer)

The best thing is that people dont want to go to smaller races, they want everything handed to them on a platter...but then complain about drafting and this and that every other thing.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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