Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers

Mar 15, 23 14:40

Post #1 of 123 (5071 views)

I'm sure somebody out there is experiencing what I have - I've been a regular user of mens speedo endurance jammers. They seem to last forever in that they don't thin out and split apart, at least compared to racing lycra jammers. I've been using them for years.

However, I've been long suspecting that my jammers loosen up over time, creating significant drag. I notice that my paces when I get the jammers new seem to be close to my fastest, and then even if I amp up my swim training, I depressingly seem to stay the same, or even get slower after a few months. Not a big amount for sure, it's always felt within rounding error range, but it has been annoying and somewhat suspicious to me.

I decided to take the plunge and go with mens speedo briefs in hopes that they'd get me some free speed compared to my 2.5 month old speedo endurance jammers (yes, they're not even old.) I did google jammers vs briefs, and contrary to what I was hoping for, pretty much every article out there says authoritatively that jammers are faster than briefs - they all say that the material of the jammers is faster than skin, and this is why all the competitive swimmers in big races use jammers nowadays (seems to be true). Still, I'm comparing to speedo endurance jammers, which I suspect are slower than racing jammers, and mine are 2.5 months old, so def looser as well.

Jumped in the pool today with briefs for the first time and man - it was like I gained an instant entire level of swim speed for free. 7sec/100 faster, at all efforts from easy to slow (only 5 sec for a max 100 though). I set a huge swim workout average pace PR despite swimming almost the entire workout at easy 1000+ aerobic pace. The overall workout average was 7sec/100 faster than my fastest average in the past 4 months (which I was doing super hard intervals for), and 9-11 seconds faster than my typical average (!!). Even more telling - i did this swim 90 minutes AFTER a 1 hr Vo2max run workout - which in my case I know limits how hard I can push on the swim, so it's likely I can go even faster if I didn't run beforehand. (I almost always swim at 7AM, but due to california crazy winds, had to swim later today.)

So if you're a long time speedo endurance jammer user, might not hurt to try out those skimpy mens briefs. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to wear my jammers ever again, despite absolutely hating the way I look in those briefs. (Seriously, I've always felt you'd never catch me dead in one of these skimpy things, but gimme 7sec+/100, and I'll wear a friggin' fig leaf to the pool if they let me!)

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 15, 23 14:47

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 16:04

Post #2 of 123 (4984 views)

Impressive.
But sometimes when things are too good to be true, you have to wonder what else may have impacted the results.
Most swim coaches and most swimmers would put in months and months of hard work to save 7 sec/100m. That is such a massive jump and savings it just seems too good to be true (not trying to put a downer on things, just has made me think of what else could have been going on to explain such a difference).
Can you think of anything else that could have contributed to swimming faster like that today?
I can understand how as the jammers wear etc they become less efficient for you, but I would have assumed there would only be a few seconds different between them, at best. Otherwise we would have heard all about this many times.....
Take the win....let's see some repeatability....

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 16:38

Post #3 of 123 (4945 views)

Yes, I def hear you about the 'unbelievability' of some of such claims. I'm the one (often the ONLY one) who's casting doubt on these claims when they're posted usually about technique - like "I adjusted my head position and now i'm 5 sec/100 faster!" - in most cases, I'm seriously skeptical about that, as you've literally had thousands of times to experiment with that as a non-beginner swimmer, so why is it just occuring now?

I'll def report back about whether this sticks, but I'll predict with near 100% probability that it will. It's that big a gain. Every single set I swam was so much faster, even the 'easy effort' ones.

Again, we're talking in my case going from speedo endurance jammers that are 2.5 months old (and I swim about 6x/wk, so used a lot) and thus a bit stretched, so that's probably the slowest possible mens swimsuit you can get. I wouldn't be surprised if those jammers are now mimicking drag suit resistance.

Seriously, that 7sec/100 speed gain felt so awesome that if it weren't for me needing to get on a plane early tomorrow AM, I'd go to the pool tonight again just for fun, to feel that free speed.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 16:48

Post #4 of 123 (4932 views)

I dont know what you got going on there, but the speedo is not the reason you went 7 seconds a 100 faster. It is accepted as a universal fact that the more compression you can get, the faster you go in the water. Jammers are faster than speedos all things equal. And that could be some of it, your tests were not using equal garments. But regardless, 7 seconds is what a wetsuit gives folks that are really good swimmers, so you need to examine your circumstance a little closer to find the real reason.

Almost sounds like you did one swim in a SCY pool, and the other a SCM one. That would be the difference you described..

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [monty] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 17:06

Post #5 of 123 (4905 views)

monty wrote:

I dont know what you got going on there, but the speedo is not the reason you went 7 seconds a 100 faster. It is accepted as a universal fact that the more compression you can get, the faster you go in the water. Jammers are faster than speedos all things equal. And that could be some of it, your tests were not using equal garments. But regardless, 7 seconds is what a wetsuit gives folks that are really good swimmers, so you need to examine your circumstance a little closer to find the real reason.

Almost sounds like you did one swim in a SCY pool, and the other a SCM one. That would be the difference you described..

You're right about the lack of compression - my speedo endurance, while not loose, aren't really compression any more. You can see a few external wrinkles when I wear them. That's why I'm making the point that it's a well-used jammer I'm talking about, and likely a slow fabric (endurance+). I've no doubt I'd go faster with new tight racing jammers - like all the pro swimmers use.

The pool is definitely SCY pool, comparing to SCY. I've swam in this pool countless times, so I know my times down to the second. And yes, at least in my n=1, I'm getting almost the equivalent of going full wetsuit. (I do swim with my wetsuit in the same pool in the 2 weeks before race day, and I get 7-10sec/100 - but I get limited by overheating in the wetsuit.)

So yes, I do agree with you that I'm not comparing 'equal' garments, in that the jammers are a slow fabric, and a bit used and have lost some compression. But I'll guarantee there are quite a few people on these forums who are experiencing exactly what I have with the exact same Endurance+ jammer, and don't realize they are giving up speed (even if it's only half of what I'm gaining back) compared to a brief.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 17:12

Post #6 of 123 (4897 views)

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower yesterday (swimming with 3 month old jammers) than they were 30 days ago when your jammers were new?

Last edited by: MrTri123: Mar 15, 23 17:12

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 17:15

Post #7 of 123 (4890 views)

MrTri123 wrote:

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower yesterday (swimming with 3 month old jammers) than they were 30 days ago when your jammers were new?

2.5 month old jammers. Not 30 days

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 17:27

Post #8 of 123 (4869 views)

MrTri123 wrote:

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower yesterday (swimming with 3 month old jammers) than they were 30 days ago when your jammers were new?

Oh misread your question.

My new vs old jammers differ by about 3-4 sec per 100. Just an estimate because I tend to swim harder once the pace is lagging and I also get in better shape as I swim more, but my fastest recorded times are about 3-4 seconds faster. And not just 30 days, my jammers are now 2.5 months of age.

The briefs are definitely faster than my NEW endurance jammer even when it was new - maybe not 7sec/100, but at least 3-4. I can hit speeds with the briefs that are almost impossible for me to hit with the endurance jammer new, and definitely impossible to hit compared to the older jammer that I just came from.

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 15, 23 17:33

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

theyellowcarguy

Mar 15, 23 17:57

Post #9 of 123 (4824 views)

Are these your jammers?

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 18:17

Post #10 of 123 (4799 views)

lightheir wrote:

MrTri123 wrote:

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower yesterday (swimming with 3 month old jammers) than they were 30 days ago when your jammers were new?

2.5 month old jammers. Not 30 days

Meant to say 3 months

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower swimming with 3 month old jammers than they were 3 months ago when your jammers were new?

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 18:32

Post #11 of 123 (4775 views)

MrTri123 wrote:

lightheir wrote:

MrTri123 wrote:

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower yesterday (swimming with 3 month old jammers) than they were 30 days ago when your jammers were new?

2.5 month old jammers. Not 30 days

Meant to say 3 months

So your 100 times were 5-7 seconds slower swimming with 3 month old jammers than they were 3 months ago when your jammers were new?

No, probably 3-4 seconds at best when comparing old vs new jammers. Again, it's hard to tell as I've assumed that my jammers weren't getting worse over time, and thus if I got slower despite training more, I tried to amp up the effort so the paces didn't get too sad.

The briefs are def faster than my new speedo endurance+ jammers. Again, I suspect the endurance+ fabric just isn't that fast, or my jammer isn't quite as tight as it should be.

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 15, 23 18:33

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 20:19

Post #12 of 123 (4681 views)

No way should your times be 5-7 secs slower per 100m just due to your togs of jammers vs briefs.

For training in the early 90s, we didn't have togs in the speedo endurance style. Instead we just used to wear multiple pairs of old lycra togs that were all falling apart, see through, baggy, offered more resistance etc. And no way were those training togs 5-7 secs slower than tight race 'briefs'. Maybe 1 second at most. The difference of 5-7 seconds could be caused by swimming with trackpants, but that's about it.

Something else is going on with your difference in speed.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 20:28

Post #13 of 123 (4666 views)

Jammers vs speedo.

You are comparing experimental data vs experimental data. For valid comparison, you require a control set.

Time to nude up.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [fulla] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 20:49

Post #14 of 123 (4650 views)

fulla wrote:

No way should your times be 5-7 secs slower per 100m just due to your togs of jammers vs briefs.

For training in the early 90s, we didn't have togs in the speedo endurance style. Instead we just used to wear multiple pairs of old lycra togs that were all falling apart, see through, baggy, offered more resistance etc. And no way were those training togs 5-7 secs slower than tight race 'briefs'. Maybe 1 second at most. The difference of 5-7 seconds could be caused by swimming with trackpants, but that's about it.

Something else is going on with your difference in speed.

100 yds (not m) - but comparing yds to yds.

In retrospect, one definite Garmin watch feature that might explain why I'm weirdly faster for the overall workout average is the way the Garmin captures swim data - you get rewardeded more for fast intervals with long rest as opposed to longer intervals or steady state long stuff because it doesn't average the rests into your workout. Looking at my workout, since I wasn't going hard, I did do somewhat shorter overall intervals, so that may end up skewing the average faster artificially - my Swim moving time was 30:30 while my elapsed time was 34:50, which is a bit more rest than I typically get, so there is some speed inflation there, but I that's not a ton more rest than I normally get for similar workouts.

When I look at each individual interval, they're all faster - and for less effort as I recall. If I were wearing jammers, the times I see look like a very hard effort, with a few impossible paces when I did like a max 100 and max 50, but really I took it z2, if not easy z2, as I just did a 60 min run Vo2max session less than 80 minutes beforehand.

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 15, 23 20:51

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [satanellus] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 20:50

Post #15 of 123 (4649 views)

satanellus wrote:

Jammers vs speedo.

You are comparing experimental data vs experimental data. For valid comparison, you require a control set.

Time to nude up.

Not even joking, if I had a private pool I would literally do this right now! I'll still bet on the briefs though...

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [fulla] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 21:54

Post #16 of 123 (4603 views)

fulla wrote:

Something else is going on with your difference in speed.

Yup. I reckon if I swam in jeans I'd be 7s/100 slower. You do slow down a bit as your race jammers age, but not 7s.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 23:34

Post #17 of 123 (4557 views)

lightheir wrote:

satanellus wrote:

Jammers vs speedo.

You are comparing experimental data vs experimental data. For valid comparison, you require a control set.

Time to nude up.

Not even joking, if I had a private pool I would literally do this right now! I'll still bet on the briefs though...

You could do it in a public pool. Just need a double blind trial. ;-)

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 23 23:47

Post #18 of 123 (4548 views)

lightheir, I don't know your swim background, but judging by your enthusiasm over this extra speed you found, I'm assuming you're not a lifelong, expert swimmer (I'm in the same boat--I would be similarly stoked about a 7 second time difference!) Apologies if I'm off the mark, and please disregard the rest of this post if that's the case! ;)

This thought occurred to me while reading through some of the replies that are doubting whether the difference between jammers and briefs really could have caused the differences in your times: In my experience (as a mediocre swimmer), things tend to slow me down more than they would slow down someone who is a better swimmer. For example(s), if I'm sharing a lane and I accidentally hit the lane line with my arm, or I screw up a breath, or I don't do a great flip turn, those things slow me way down. It might take a few stroke cycles for me to get back into a good groove. I could easily lose a good chunk of seconds per 100 because of something like that. But a more proficient swimmer can recover from those things quicker; they may only lose a second or two (and might be similarly skeptical of my time loss since it doesn't match their experience).

Just wondering if something similar may have been happening with your old jammers--like they're creating more drag which is causing something else to happen--maybe your legs are sinking and you're not realizing it. So the slower times are not just due to resistance from baggy shorts, but also from worse body position. Or some chain reaction like that.

Regardless, keep swimming in those speedos, and don't look back!

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 0:53

Post #19 of 123 (4515 views)

I forgot my jammers a couple of weeks ago so had to buy some speedos from the pool. Felt a lot faster swimming in them. Don't think it was anything to do with speedos vs jammers, more down to trying harder to get out of the pool faster due to embarrassment from wearing them in the first place.

Only half joking.

Last edited by: ianmo80: Mar 16, 23 0:53

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:05

Post #20 of 123 (4434 views)

ntl_tri wrote:

Just wondering if something similar may have been happening with your old jammers--like they're creating more drag which is causing something else to happen--maybe your legs are sinking and you're not realizing it. So the slower times are not just due to resistance from baggy shorts, but also from worse body position. Or some chain reaction like that.

Regardless, keep swimming in those speedos, and don't look back!

It's certainly possible. I know from my own video that I can get slightly dropped legs when I swim, especially when going slower, so it's possible that with less drag, the better the legs being higher.

But I'm being dead honest when I don't feel that - what I definitely did feel with the briefs is that I'm just sliding through the water more easily - the difference was so big that I knew it was going to be a good one from the first lap as everything just felt easier, faster, and for less effort.

I've been swimming enough that at this point, even though my technique is FAR from perfect, it's really, really stable. I'm the guy on this forum that despite literally obsessing about technique, taking lots of self-video, and participating on way too many swim technique threads here, estimates that I've probably gained <1-2 sec/100 from pure technical gains in the past several years (yes it makes me sad, and that's why I'm always getting flamed on swim-technique threads I participate in since like every coach seems to say I should be seeing way more gains from technique than just swimming more-harder) It makes a bigger difference for me to buy a new jammer than anything else in the past - so much so I bought 3 speedo endurance jammers in 9 months last year on suspicion they were getting looser and killing my speed. So getting faster for me by even 1sec/100 I'd consider a big win, and gaining 4+ sec/100 is something I NEVER see unless I'm putting on a wetsuit or using paddles.

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 16, 23 3:07

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:11

Post #21 of 123 (4421 views)

From my experience of being a tug boat i think you’re hitting on some solid lines of thinking… for what it is worth, I’m a jammer guy through and through, but several weeks back i started to do my weekly speed session in a speedo and i can tell you i most definitely feel faster and my split times are definitely quicker (maybe 2-3 seconds per 100scy) all the while feeling easier. I’m more convinced it is a psychological boost than anything else, but, in any event, i now NEED to wear my speedos for the speed sessions - lmbo.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:17

Post #22 of 123 (4414 views)

Are you timing in real time using the pace clock or after the fact based on a data from a collecting watch?

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:18

Post #23 of 123 (4414 views)

lightheir wrote:

I'm sure somebody out there is experiencing what I have - I've been a regular user of mens speedo endurance jammers. They seem to last forever in that they don't thin out and split apart, at least compared to racing lycra jammers. I've been using them for years.

However, I've been long suspecting that my jammers loosen up over time, creating significant drag. I notice that my paces when I get the jammers new seem to be close to my fastest, and then even if I amp up my swim training, I depressingly seem to stay the same, or even get slower after a few months. Not a big amount for sure, it's always felt within rounding error range, but it has been annoying and somewhat suspicious to me.

I decided to take the plunge and go with mens speedo briefs in hopes that they'd get me some free speed compared to my 2.5 month old speedo endurance jammers (yes, they're not even old.) I did google jammers vs briefs, and contrary to what I was hoping for, pretty much every article out there says authoritatively that jammers are faster than briefs - they all say that the material of the jammers is faster than skin, and this is why all the competitive swimmers in big races use jammers nowadays (seems to be true). Still, I'm comparing to speedo endurance jammers, which I suspect are slower than racing jammers, and mine are 2.5 months old, so def looser as well.

Jumped in the pool today with briefs for the first time and man - it was like I gained an instant entire level of swim speed for free. 7sec/100 faster, at all efforts from easy to slow (only 5 sec for a max 100 though). I set a huge swim workout average pace PR despite swimming almost the entire workout at easy 1000+ aerobic pace. The overall workout average was 7sec/100 faster than my fastest average in the past 4 months (which I was doing super hard intervals for), and 9-11 seconds faster than my typical average (!!). Even more telling - i did this swim 90 minutes AFTER a 1 hr Vo2max run workout - which in my case I know limits how hard I can push on the swim, so it's likely I can go even faster if I didn't run beforehand. (I almost always swim at 7AM, but due to california crazy winds, had to swim later today.)

So if you're a long time speedo endurance jammer user, might not hurt to try out those skimpy mens briefs. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to wear my jammers ever again, despite absolutely hating the way I look in those briefs. (Seriously, I've always felt you'd never catch me dead in one of these skimpy things, but gimme 7sec+/100, and I'll wear a friggin' fig leaf to the pool if they let me!)

Whenever I see someone wearing a lycra jammer (not the high-speed competition style), they're almost always loose.

While I can't speak to the magnitude of change you experienced, it doesn't surprise me that you noticed a difference, especially if you've been wearing it for a while.

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [deantrives] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:23

Post #24 of 123 (4405 views)

deantrives wrote:

From my experience of being a tug boat i think you’re hitting on some solid lines of thinking… for what it is worth, I’m a jammer guy through and through, but several weeks back i started to do my weekly speed session in a speedo and i can tell you i most definitely feel faster and my split times are definitely quicker (maybe 2-3 seconds per 100scy) all the while feeling easier. I’m more convinced it is a psychological boost than anything else, but, in any event, i now NEED to wear my speedos for the speed sessions - lmbo.

Curious - were you a speedo endurance jammer guy? I haven't tried anything outside of speedo endurance jammers or TYR dura-fast jammers, so wondering if these degradation-resistant fabrics are just particularly slow compared to skin.

My new jammers are always tight at the quads when new - I have a short stocky build so that's always the case with even normal pants for me, so I'm getting some compression with jammers when new, but they do loosen up over time, likely creating a lot more drag.

Re: Speedo mens briefs are 5-7 sec/100 faster for me than speedo endurance jammers [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 23 3:36

Post #25 of 123 (4391 views)

zedzded wrote:

fulla wrote:

Something else is going on with your difference in speed.

Yup. I reckon if I swam in jeans I'd be 7s/100 slower. You do slow down a bit as your race jammers age, but not 7s.

The 7sec is only comparing the brief to the old, loosened endurance+ jammer (which to me sounds like almost swimming in a drag suit.)

I suspect I was losing 3-4sec/100 from comparing old jammer vs new endurance+ jammer. (Not 7sec from old jammer vs new jammer, not even in the best case scenarios, even 5sec would be too much, and it could be as small as 2-3 sec of gain.)

Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 16, 23 3:53

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