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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [beston] [ In reply to ]
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beston wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
I think it is very cool that you made those new bolts. But....if you sell them, and one -happens- to break, and someone gets hurt, are you setting yourself up for a big lawsuit?


...Seems like trek isn't too worried about the weaker bolts they are providing.

i see this 'lawsuit' logic from people a fair bit. Does anyone here know of a person that 'acutally' sued a bike manufacturer?(Genuine question out of curiosity)

Yes

I'm racing 2019 IM Arizona as part of Team Smile Train. Will I implode? Will I finish strong? Donate to find out more!
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [atb] [ In reply to ]
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atb wrote:
Has anybody else suffered problems with bolts shearing on their speed concept aerobars? Seems a few people have - https://cyclinguphill.com/...ed-concept-aerobars/, so I thought I’d ask the wider community. Trek don’t seem to really care at this point, perhaps with a few more voices they may actually do something…

This has happened to me twice now. First time in Kona last year, at the top of the Hawi climb, the rear bolt snapped, sending me over the handlebars and resulting in a broken wrist. Everything was torqued to spec, but bolts ~ 18 months old and a little worn due to heavy indoor use. I put this failure down to my lack of maintenance. I contacted Trek afterwards and they responded in true corporate fashion ‘…we have not identified any problems in that area’ (OWTTE).

The same thing happened to me this last weekend. This time I was riding faster, so was able to stay upright when the aerobars pitched forwards suddenly, but the result could have been much worse at this speed. This time - bolts less than 8 weeks old (yes, Trek’s ‘Speed Concept Fastener Set’, which cost me 40GBP for a set of a dozen or so bolts…), all tightened correctly and set up as per instruction. It happened riding over a railway crossing, it wasn’t a large impact. Again, similar response from Trek.

When I found the above link, I figured there are probably many more people out there who have experienced similar and I hope to hear from some of those people.

Alex


X2 with SteveJ in tightening each bolt incrementally. In the link posted I found in interesting that the rider didn't even know what set screw Trek was talking about. Here is a direct quote

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
I’m not sure what they mean by set screw


Then cyclinguphill made a point to highlight another solution being:

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
Tightening the bottom bolt (closest to you when sitting) first. This should angle the bars all the way up. THEN tighten the other both (what looks like the broken one).
There is also the extra smaller grub screw that you tighten LAST – this helps stop the bars moving once position is set.


Hopefully others can see why this is a problem. You tighten the rear bolt to spec and it is at spec and then you tighten the front bolt which is then putting even more pressure on the rear bolt as they move in opposite directions and function as a system. This is why you should tighten incrementally. Fwiw, I have cracked an aero bar pad before those bolts. I have sheered off one of the bolts that attaches the stem to the fork.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Apr 5, 18 10:14
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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I would be up for a pair or 2.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome! For what reason? What was the outcome?

...I'm well aware of 'Ambulance Chasing' lawyers and I've seen the calls for people affected by Trek's QR skewer recall (that no one was hurt from), but that case seems ridculous (and going nowhere).
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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coates_hbk wrote:
do you have the tilt maxed out? is it only affecting those who use the full tilt up?

like the above poster, i have found over time the bar moves- I didnt realize it till i saw a pic of me side on, just how far my elbows had moved back towards my tummy. I now moved it back out, i have a bit of tilt but not a huge amount like the pic. I torque it up a little bit more than required. Touch wood my bike is 2014 and ridden on the trainer a lot so i cant complain with the movement over time as it has held up, that aside.
On a seperate note i find those bolts around the aerobars and mono really easy to round off

Not maxed out but non trivial, about 15° IIRC. Definitely could go with a larger angle, so it's not like I'm operating outside the intended range.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
Are you using the correct length bolts? I don’t have a Trek, but I made sure to use the absolute longest bolts I possibly could with my aerobar risers. I want as many threads engaged as possible.
Also, you may want to source some stainless steel bolts to help with sweat corrosion from indoor riding.

The Speed Concept has a little t-nut (correct me if that's the wrong terminology, engineers...) which the bolt goes through, so making the bolts longer won't help; there's a finite length of bolt which is gripped and this is maximised already by the Trek bolts.

I haven't really ridden inside while the last set of bolts has been on the bike. Plus, it's never that sweaty as I use two 32" fans....
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be interested in a pair...

As I read this thread more... I hate tearing into the front end of my bike... but I'm going to anyways and blue locktite the monobar bolts.

I'm thinking out loud but I wonder if overtightening the bolts to keep them from coming loose contributes to breakage?

In general with all torque related items I'm careful about the torque values and how they're tightened... aka uniformly.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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X2 with SteveJ in tightening each bolt incrementally. In the link posted I found in interesting that the rider didn't even know what set screw Trek was talking about. Here is a direct quote

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
I’m not sure what they mean by set screw


Then cyclinguphill made a point to highlight another solution being:

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
Tightening the bottom bolt (closest to you when sitting) first. This should angle the bars all the way up. THEN tighten the other both (what looks like the broken one).
There is also the extra smaller grub screw that you tighten LAST – this helps stop the bars moving once position is set.


Hopefully others can see why this is a problem. You tighten the rear bolt to spec and it is at spec and then you tighten the front bolt which is then putting even more pressure on the rear bolt as they move in opposite directions and function as a system. This is why you should tighten incrementally. Fwiw, I have cracked an aero bar pad before those bolts. I have sheered off one of the bolts that attaches the stem to the fork.[/quote]
Thank you Thomas. This is exactly why I tighten them incrementally.

I also noticed the link where they didn't even know what the set screw was.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
X2 with SteveJ in tightening each bolt incrementally. In the link posted I found in interesting that the rider didn't even know what set screw Trek was talking about. Here is a direct quote

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
I’m not sure what they mean by set screw


Then cyclinguphill made a point to highlight another solution being:

cyclinguphill.com wrote:
Tightening the bottom bolt (closest to you when sitting) first. This should angle the bars all the way up. THEN tighten the other both (what looks like the broken one).
There is also the extra smaller grub screw that you tighten LAST – this helps stop the bars moving once position is set.


Hopefully others can see why this is a problem. You tighten the rear bolt to spec and it is at spec and then you tighten the front bolt which is then putting even more pressure on the rear bolt as they move in opposite directions and function as a system. This is why you should tighten incrementally. Fwiw, I have cracked an aero bar pad before those bolts. I have sheered off one of the bolts that attaches the stem to the fork.

Thank you Thomas. This is exactly why I tighten them incrementally.

I also noticed the link where they didn't even know what the set screw was.[/quote]
And that set screw, if at the front of the bar is pretty important because if you hit a bump and if it is not secured then the bar is going to collapse down at the front putting even more pressure on that rear bolt. The combo of the two errors would seem like a recipe for bolts being far over stressed.


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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be interested.

-- Scott
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [TriScott] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you everyone for your responses, I did not expect to see this many responses and private messages about this.

I would like to point out that SBRcanuck is correct – I had not thought about the legality that would be involved with the sale of these units. I do not own a small business so I will need to consult to see what my options are for this. I will not lie - the thought of been held accountable is a huge turnoff to me.

There is a fair amount of forum members that are having success with their setups and that is fantastic news! I must agree that proper installation and the usage of Blue Loctite is critical – This is something I would recommend for the OEM bolts or even the aftermarket ones I have mentioned earlier.

I hate to be the one who says it – but a bolt failure is a bolt failure, and it has shown to happen to multiple people so far.

If I can use my example again;
I purchased my steed off the showroom floor, had it professionally fit at the Trek dealer and took it home with me after they “wrapped it up”. The bars with my position was level and not tilted at all. I periodically checked the bolt tightness as that’s my normal maintenance routine but never had the mono extension bolts come loose. You fast forward 4 months later the bolts fail during the race I bought the bike for (I alternate between 3 bikes also). The fact of the matter is, I like many others probably rolled off the show room floor and the failure could have occurred from something the LBS did or didn’t do right…….. That does not change the fact that some bolts are separating at the T-anchor, something for such a critical part should not be happening IMO.

I studied the Trek installation procedure after my issues and found the instructions to be informative but also leaving room for failure. It is very difficult to know if you will load the front or rear bolt on the assembly – or equalize it. It is also difficult to tell how the rider will stress by pulling/pushing on the bar or what their weight factor will amplify. It’s also hard to know what environmental features the bolts will be put in and how many “hits” they can take in this environment. As said before – these bolts should not be able to separate/fail and if they are designed to do that, then they should not be responsible for the main control of the mono extension.

To me the design is flawed in it only has 1 grub/set screw as opposed to two (one on each side), so no matter what - one bolt will be loading and unloading tension.

I said it earlier on – I am not wanting to hit the deck. I have been there and done that, I’m not wanting to go back there if I can avoid it. The cost of an emergency visit (even if not severely hurt) could be offset by the cost of a few bolts for me and that does not account for any time/training that would be lost from it.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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I understand your concerns. It was worth a shot.

Thanks

-- Scott
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:
I haven't had problems with those bolts (other than them occasionally coming loose), but have a consistent problem with my seat post clamp bolts. They've broken 3 times in 4 years, and I weigh 140-145lbs. After the first time, I made sure to use a torque wrench.

I tried using stainless steel bolts but just couldn't get the right fit with them, they'd come loose rather quickly. So now I just carry a spare seat post clamp & bolts with me at all times.

I have two Gen 2 SC and had one seat post bolt shear off each seat post. I had my LBS replace them with stainless steel bolts of the same size over a year ago and it resolved my issue.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:
I haven't had problems with those bolts (other than them occasionally coming loose), but have a consistent problem with my seat post clamp bolts. They've broken 3 times in 4 years, and I weigh 140-145lbs. After the first time, I made sure to use a torque wrench.

I tried using stainless steel bolts but just couldn't get the right fit with them, they'd come loose rather quickly. So now I just carry a spare seat post clamp & bolts with me at all times.

My stem broke clean through at the area that clamps the fork crown. I was ~120lbs at the time. Probably hit a pot hole? I don't know, but as people here know, the stem has a cover, so you can't see it. I rode several times with a weird creak before doing some investigation. I think about it frequently because it could have/should have just given out and sent me face first into the pavement. I always laugh at the comments on these forums where people are like, why would you ever buy anything other than a Cervelo P2/P3/P5 or Trek?!? That Trek Speed concept was absolutely the worst bike I ever owned by far.

Dimond Bikes
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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The stem bolts loosen up a bit for me too. I intermittently take the cover off and check. Still a cracking bike though I love mine. If something shears off I might not though lol but had it 4 years now
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Eric - Was yours a gen1 or gen2?
On my gen1, I went through a couple of the stems as well. One broke where it tightens on to the steerer tube, and one developed a big crack on the flat section that the base bar bolts on to - the crack was in front of the bolts, so the bar still stayed on.
That was over a period of about 5 years. I generally loved the bike.....the one thing that really bothered me though, was my bottom bracket wearing out and needing the oversized trek bearings, and even then I still had issues. That is why I didn't buy another SC, the bottom bracket...
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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Please put me down for a set. Just purchased a new 2018 Project One. This thread has made me very nervous.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
I was told that they would have a failure every 6 weeks with the OEM bolts.

I would love to see a video of this person installing their bar. Something doesn't make sense if they are needing a new pair every 6 weeks.


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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Eric - Was yours a gen1 or gen2?
On my gen1, I went through a couple of the stems as well. One broke where it tightens on to the steerer tube, and one developed a big crack on the flat section that the base bar bolts on to - the crack was in front of the bolts, so the bar still stayed on.
That was over a period of about 5 years. I generally loved the bike.....the one thing that really bothered me though, was my bottom bracket wearing out and needing the oversized trek bearings, and even then I still had issues. That is why I didn't buy another SC, the bottom bracket...

mine was gen 1. i had quite a few troubles with brakes and other stuff with that bike, none of which I was handy enough to fix myself. wasted so much time taking it back and fourth to the shop. i'm sure it's a lot better now, but doesn't matter to me, wouldn't even consider it as an option for a second. FWIW, I don't think it's a particularly fast bike and think optimizing for high yaw as the design premise was not correct.

Dimond Bikes
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
teddygram wrote:
I was told that they would have a failure every 6 weeks with the OEM bolts.


I would love to see a video of this person installing their bar. Something doesn't make sense if they are needing a new pair every 6 weeks.
+1. I'm 180lbs and I bomb down potholed roads in the aerobars at 45mph with no problems, and I've also moved my front end around countless times. No way those bolts should fail every 6 weeks. My guess is their torque wrench is off, if they're using one. Same thing with the seatpost bolts BTW. I'm even more sure that people shearing the seatpost bolts are overtightening them.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
teddygram wrote:
I was told that they would have a failure every 6 weeks with the OEM bolts.


I would love to see a video of this person installing their bar. Something doesn't make sense if they are needing a new pair every 6 weeks.

+1. I'm 180lbs and I bomb down potholed roads in the aerobars at 45mph with no problems, and I've also moved my front end around countless times. No way those bolts should fail every 6 weeks. My guess is their torque wrench is off, if they're using one. Same thing with the seatpost bolts BTW. I'm even more sure that people shearing the seatpost bolts are overtightening them.


Despite the fact that you’re sure, you’re still wrong. Torqued properly, I had two shear on two different Gen 2 speed concepts. I’m 6’2” and very near the minimum insert which places the maximum pressure on the OEM nickel plated bolts.
Last edited by: Skyline Chili: Apr 5, 18 19:07
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [Skyline Chili] [ In reply to ]
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Skyline Chili wrote:
lanierb wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
teddygram wrote:
I was told that they would have a failure every 6 weeks with the OEM bolts.


I would love to see a video of this person installing their bar. Something doesn't make sense if they are needing a new pair every 6 weeks.

+1. I'm 180lbs and I bomb down potholed roads in the aerobars at 45mph with no problems, and I've also moved my front end around countless times. No way those bolts should fail every 6 weeks. My guess is their torque wrench is off, if they're using one. Same thing with the seatpost bolts BTW. I'm even more sure that people shearing the seatpost bolts are overtightening them.


Despite the fact that you’re sure, you’re still wrong. Torqued properly, I had two shear on two different Gen 2 speed concepts. I’m 6’2” and very near the minimum insert which places the maximum pressure on the OEM nickel plated bolts.

Edit: I decided to rewrite my response. The Gen 2 SC has been around for four years and there have been tons of big dudes riding them without shearing anything, so sorry but that means your problem is either (a) you overtorqued the bolts, or (b) your SC is messed up -- out of spec or cracked seat tube.

Overtorque can happy lots of ways so that's a real possibility, especially since you managed to do it twice. You realize those bolts are only 5Nm right? They are like stem bolts.

Also, sorry but minimum insertion has nothing to do with it (if its within spec and not cracked or anything). The seat tube holds the post. The clamp keeps it from slipping down. The clamp is supported by the seat tube assembly and takes the sideways load. The screws merely provide clamping force and take no sideways load, even at minimum insertion, again unless there's a problem. Again, they are like stem bolts. If you're breaking them there's something wrong.
Last edited by: lanierb: Apr 5, 18 21:18
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [Skyline Chili] [ In reply to ]
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Out of curiosity, where is your arm pad support relative to the tilt bolts? Fore/aft any significant distance? Mine is directly over the bolts so I can't see how there would ever be any significant force applied to them.
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Sbernardi wrote:
^ This. Stainless steel bolts. If you ever see the pros bikes, they all have stainless. I’m not sure why Trek never addressed this

I Do not know what grade the bolt Trek provides with their bike, but in general Stainless bolts can NOT be assumed to be stronger than a black oxide (typical hardware store fastener). ACE Hardware in the like usually are 8.8,10.9, or 12.9 bolts...this guarantees a proof strength. Stainless Steel fasteners are not always handled this same way.

Yes their corrosion resistance is superior but the strength may not always be so! YMMV
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Re: Speed Concept Aerobar failures [GatorRacer] [ In reply to ]
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GatorRacer wrote:
Sbernardi wrote:
^ This. Stainless steel bolts. If you ever see the pros bikes, they all have stainless. I’m not sure why Trek never addressed this


I Do not know what grade the bolt Trek provides with their bike, but in general Stainless bolts can NOT be assumed to be stronger than a black oxide (typical hardware store fastener). ACE Hardware in the like usually are 8.8,10.9, or 12.9 bolts...this guarantees a proof strength. Stainless Steel fasteners are not always handled this same way.

Yes their corrosion resistance is superior but the strength may not always be so! YMMV

Hi GatorRacer,

I am not sure if this was also in response to what I posted/listed - just so it is known or said again the bolts are custom 450 stainless steel with a 180KSI strength. The same grade material is used as fasteners for highly modified racing engines.
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