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Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really?
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With all the buzz over IMC becoming Challenge Penticton, the one piece that caught my eye was the relay aspect. And I'm really not sure how I feel about that.


Do they get to say they did an Ironman, or whatever the new term is, Ironchallenged? Can you imagine how it's going to feel on the run, after you've swam miles 2.4 AND biked 112, to have some one in their run gear go flying past you on fresh legs?


Before Sunday's race I was talking with a very sweet woman maybe in her late 50s that mentioned she did a half-Iron last year. At first I was impressed, then she mentioned that "she did the swim portion" referring to a relay.


Personally, I think the relay concept is horribly flawed. It shouldn't be each do a leg, it should be each do a third of the leg, you know, like a relay. Which would probably only work on courses with three loops.


It also seems like it goes completely against the very concept of triathlon. Now it's just an early swim race for some, a nice bike race for a few others, and a bizarrely late marathon for the rest, none of who are triathletes. Why not just offer those three as stand alone races for anyone that feels like just doing just that part?


I also couldn't imagine having to be the runner. You'd sit around for anywhere from 5 to 10.5 hours wondering where your cyclist buddy is. Then I'd assume they'd call your number, "359, your cyclist is approaching, number 359 please make your way to the transition area." I figure you'd get those little pagers you get at restaurants.


Now that I think of it, why would you even need to bother waiting for your other person. Just start the swimmer, biker, and runner all at the same time, or at designated times. Do you really even need a hand off? It's not like there is a baton to drop.


Okay so I've now put at least 4min of thought into this, and decided the relay should be 421.8 miles, now THAT would be impressive, like Ragnar. A guy jumps in the water and swims 2.4 miles down the river. The rest of the team drives down to meet him/her so the next person gets in, swim another 2.4 and so on and so on. Everyone bikes a few legs, then runs a few legs. It would almost be the distance from San Diego to San Francisco!


Thoughts?




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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
I also couldn't imagine having to be the runner. You'd sit around for anywhere from 5 to 10.5 hours wondering where your cyclist buddy is. Then I'd assume they'd call your number, "359, your cyclist is approaching, number 359 please make your way to the transition area." I figure you'd get those little pagers you get at restaurants.

Thoughts?

LOL.

My thoughts? You're seriously a pretty funny guy.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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How is it really different than any Triathlon relay? Does a person doing a team sprint get to say they are a triathlete?

Personally I don't like relays but it makes no difference to me if others do.

Ian
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [tkos] [ In reply to ]
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tkos wrote:
How is it really different than any Triathlon relay? Does a person doing a team sprint get to say they are a triathlete?

I don't really have an answer to that because I still don't *get* the point of the relay. I was a lifeguard growing up and participated in a lot of lifeguard competitions that were team based involving relays. But like I said earlier, each person still had to do each leg. So it wouldn't help you to stack a team with a super fast swimmer that can't run, and a track star that can't swim. You had to work as a team. Some how the triathlon relay missed that concept.

tkos wrote:
Personally I don't like relays but it makes no difference to me if others do.

Nor me, but this is ST where I figured it would REALLY bother some people, especially those that are already pissed at the number of "tourists" in races. Now when you're out there you'll be swimming against someone who's day ends at the beach. On the bike, you'll be racing against cyclists that have no intention of running any time soon. And on the run you'll be passed by guys with fresh legs. That's gotta bother some people.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
That's gotta bother some people.

God it bothers me. Bothers, bothers me.

Is it just me or does the word "bother" just look fucked up?
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
Aqua Man wrote:
That's gotta bother some people.


God it bothers me. Bothers, bothers me.

Is it just me or does the word "bother" just look fucked up?

It does now.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
tkos wrote:
How is it really different than any Triathlon relay? Does a person doing a team sprint get to say they are a triathlete?


I don't really have an answer to that because I still don't *get* the point of the relay.

Eh, I grew up swimming so relay has always been a pretty large piece of competition. All our triathlons down here (Mexico) have relay entrants. Is this something new up there? As far as what people want to call themselves, that really is none of anyone's concern. Live your own life and worry about yourself.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Who cares? How will it change your day at all if you get passed by a runner on fresh legs or a cyclist on fresh legs? It's no difference than getting passed by a strong cyclist/runner that is a bad swimmer or a fast runner that is a weak swimmer and cyclist. There are 2500 people on course, and if relay rates are similar to my local sprint/olympic relay signup rates, there'll be like 25 relay teams total, and none of them will be anywhere near the overall victory. You'd probably be lucky to see one.

I'd love to do a relay (I'd be a good standalone swimmer or cyclist), but I haven't been able to get 3 friends together where our schedules all match. They sound like a blast. I'd love to see if I could get a team that would win an event overall.

If they call themselves an Ironman (which would be pretty dumb), I don't think it would devalue your self-naming any more than the guys who draft or cut courses. I imagine they'd call themselves swimmers, cyclists, or runners, who had fun being a ringer on a relay team. They could call themselves an Ironteam or something.

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Last edited by: AHare: Aug 29, 12 8:00
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Until about three days ago I would have agreed with you but after getting so much feedback from people here on the ground in Penticton and speaking with a few of my old school mates I am now a relay convert.The reason is that these relays will allow people who can't compete in one or other of the legs of a triathlon to be part of the event.It also allows people who do not want to dedicate a whole year to training for three sports to be involved as well.

I have seen a few families excitedly talking about finally being able to race together.I have heard quality athletes talking about being able to race with their lesser talented partners.I have heard of businesses putting teams together.Sister Madonna is so excited to be in a team and she even turned down an offer by Felix to be on a team with him because her team for next year is already set.It is all good.

The sport has changed and with that change some of us old schoolers have to accept it and realise that the athletes are now customers and for races to be successfull then the customers have to be catered to.Teams is just a good way of expanding the customer base.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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kathy_caribe wrote:
Eh, I grew up swimming so relay has always been a pretty large piece of competition.

Me too, but the swim relay had four people all do the same thing (except IM) for the same distance, competing against other relays at the same time. The guys racing the 400m free weren't swimming against the 4x100m free relay.

Also keep in mind that triathlon has three sports. In swimming you get to specialize and pick which stroke you want to race. Imagine if all swimming races were IM, except you could also sign up for a relay and only do one of them.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Yea but would all three of them be able to get the Ironman tattoo....uhhhh Challenge tattoo?
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [wankers] [ In reply to ]
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wankers wrote:
Yea but would all three of them be able to get the Ironman tattoo....uhhhh Challenge tattoo?

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I actually know someone who got an arty M-Dot tattoo after finishing a Challenge event..I just shook my head.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
kathy_caribe wrote:
Eh, I grew up swimming so relay has always been a pretty large piece of competition.


Me too, but the swim relay had four people all do the same thing (except IM) for the same distance, competing against other relays at the same time. The guys racing the 400m free weren't swimming against the 4x100m free relay.

Also keep in mind that triathlon has three sports. In swimming you get to specialize and pick which stroke you want to race. Imagine if all swimming races were IM, except you could also sign up for a relay and only do one of them.

Yeah I know what triathlon is and I know what relays are (and I was an IM'er when I swam) and all the triathlons here are relay. I don't think I've ever met anyone at any of the triathlons who had a problem with it. What is your problem exactly? That people are doing relays of a triathlon and (GASP) calling themselves triathletes? Geez, if that's your biggest problem in life, I feel sorry for you.

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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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i like relays because it gives me the chance to crush the dreams of 3 people instead of just one. and i do enjoy crushing the dreams of the soccer moms that are doing the relays.

actually i did a relay a couple weeks ago. a friend of mine (runner) called me up and asked if i'd do the bike leg of an Oly distance. i didn't have anything else going on so i figured a hard 40k would be great training. our swimmer got smoked by the other relays. i came out and did a 1:00:23 (damn hills and wind!) and crushed our closest soccer mom by 30minutes. then our runner dogged a 38 adding yet another chunk of change to the bank. it wasn't even a fair fight. if i do it again there should be a rule that i have to ride the same hybrid as the rest of the relay's.

still it was fun to be finished with my part.

my real answer is i don't care if there are relays

Tim


Tim
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I have participated in a relay and its a completely different mentality. The teams are really doing it for fun. They want to participate as a group. Now, there are a few that do take it super serious and get ringers in each leg, but at least relays have their own category. They are not competing with the AGs for time or slots or whatever. The teams I have been a part of were co-ed, so no sure if its different if all males or all females. But it was all fun, everyone does the best they can. Its just a fun event to get everyone together, and it gives some people a training goal to keep them on track for a larger A race later in the year. The timing chip around your ankle is the baton, it gets transferred at each transition. Plus, its nice to have an opportunity to get on a controlled or semi closed course to focus on your part of the race. I do the bike, and you can't beat having a course of open roads to ride/train vs a typical saturday when I have to watch out for people, cars, traffic, etc. And it gives me training time in aero gear to work out any kinks. I guess I view my participation in relay as a good training session to push my limits vs racing against another participant. I don't know if that would water down your experience.

The only issue I could see, is making sure to limit the number of relay teams. Full distance races are already packed. So the only issue I could see is worsening congestion for people who are doing the race as their A race. The relay races I have done, its only been 20 relay teams total. I don't think those numbers would alter AGs experience.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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AHare wrote:
Who cares? How will it change your day at all if you get passed by a runner on fresh legs or a cyclist on fresh legs? It's no difference than getting passed by a strong cyclist/runner that is a bad swimmer or a fast runner that is a weak swimmer and cyclist.

5 years ago when I was starting out in running I signed up for a 10mile road race that was also at the same time as a half marathon. The course was two big loops of the waterfront, so the 10milers started a mile in front of the half-ers. The gun went off at the same time for both groups, so 5min into the race the elites when blowing past us BOPers. Then the 7min/mile, then the 8, then the 9. For the first several miles of the race a constant stream of people just slightly faster passed by. Keep in mind at the time I didn't have a gps watch, so pace was based on feel and what other people were doing around me. This felt like going backwards.

To make up for the extra two miles they had the half marathon group do a loop around a small island, so again at mile 8 the entire pack went by again. Easily the most demoralizing experience I've had in a race.

I did a half-iron in July that also had a sprint that started after us on part of the course. For the first 10miles I thought my Garmin was broken based on the speed guys went by me.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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If you take the position that growth is good for triathlon (I'm not sure that it is) relays are a good gateway drug. That runner flying by you on fresh legs is likely to be wondering "could I do the whole thing?"
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
Can you imagine how it's going to feel on the run, after you've swam miles 2.4 AND biked 112, to have some one in their run gear go flying past you on fresh legs?

Dude, you are gonna get passed on the bike by some of the relay teams even if they start an hour later, forget about the run. Check out the relay winning time in Roth. They recruit a top swimmer (sub 50), pro cyclist (4 hours) and pro marathoner (2:20) for the relay teams and come in just over 7 hours. Yeah, I know - the course is short!
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
I still don't *get* the point of the relay.

Out of curiosity, and I really don't mean this to be contentious, do you get the point of team sports where people play different positions requiring different skills and abilities, because that's what they are good at or enjoy?
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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It's a good money-maker IMO.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
It also seems like it goes completely against the very concept of triathlon. Now it's just an early swim race for some, a nice bike race for a few others, and a bizarrely late marathon for the rest, none of who are triathletes.

Why the assumption that anyone in a relay team is not a triathlete? I'm a x3 IM and seriously thinking about a relay team for Challenge Penticton, as are several of my training buddies. Not all of us can commit to a 140.6 every year (or mutliple times a year) due to work and family constraints. Others have injury issues that may prevent full participation (i.e. unable to run but can still swim/bike).

A relay team is a way to still be involved in a sport we love while balancing lifes complexities, experiencing a great tri course and enjoying a fun vacation together. It's also a gateway drug for those interested in triathlons but lacking the confidence to tackle the entire race. And a relay provides a way for significant others & family to experience and be involved in their triathlete's activities (e.g. wife does the full tri while her sister swims, hubby rides, and brother-in-law runs). How could that be bad when it is pulling the whole family together and making a "me" sport more about "us"? If the RDs are willing to offer a relay event, I'll consider it. Though to be honest, part of me struggles with the "well if I am going all that way to just ride, I may as well swim and run too". But that's just my personality!

Regardless, I don't understand why the addition of relays to a 140.6 would affect your race and bother you so. So you may get passed by a relay swimmer (would you even notice?), cyclist or runner. So what? You are not competing against them. Just like you are not really competing against a 50 year old grandma that may "nana" you in a race (unless of course you are a 50-54yr old woman). And even if you say your race is for overall spots, I have yet to hear of a race that includes relay teams in the "overall" rankings. It is a separate race entirely and generally treated as such.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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The pager thing was funny.

Why not make peace with relays. They are extra revenue for the host which I hope means a better organized race for everyone else.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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If a relay team crosses first are they the overall winner? Is it fair if the runner breaks the tape but the swimmer had a better split? Gandolf, can we get a ruling on this?
/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Why be pissed about that.

The WTC sanctioned it. All their "half" Ironman races are Ironman 70.3... so whether Ironman or Ironman 70.3 they are still Ironman races.

I have not been to a WTC 70.3 in a couple of years, but I remember hearing them call you "You are an Ironman" when people were crossing the finish line for Timberman 70.3 in 2010.

For get the person now, but a year or so ago, there was a thread all in hoopla because some personality was being interviewed and they were talking about doing Ironman races and they were only doing halves.

Frankly I could give two bleeps about the term Ironman. It is a corporate logo/name, that at one time was a race distance. To me "Ironman" is no different than McDonalds, Burger King, Kia or Wal-Mart.

I think of my races in terms of distance, Sprints, Olys, Halfs and Fulls. Lot less complicated that way, though even there can be variations in that.
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Re: Speaking of watering down Iron-distance: relays, really? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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White people problem.


Last edited by: DrPete: Aug 29, 12 9:04
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