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Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders)
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What's faster?
Assuming all put out equivalent power and ride equally decent bikes. Flat course and paceliners rotating equally, all of us under a same wind (environment) conditions.

Scenarios: Still wind; headwind and tailwind.

I am a TT solo cyclist and frequently "race" the same folks that ride on a road bike paceline, across the same segments. Those are strong riders, so just curious if one of the sides has a base advantage over the other, from an average drag perspective.

Consider a 2 or 3 riders paceline, that's the average I noticed.

Should I train more or join them? Haha!

Thanks for any insights.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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You on a TT bike vs small groups on road bikes? I'd say it very much depends on the duration of the segment. TT bike may have the advantage over shorter segments with the group having advantage over longer segments (and also downhills).
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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If both of the 2 riders are as strong as you, they will win. And if all 3 of the 3 riders are as strong as you they will win by a big margin. If there are weaker riders than you in the paceline you have a good chance to win. From my experiences, in a 2 or 3 up the weakest rider determines the outcome.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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wnusser wrote:
What's faster?
Assuming all put out equivalent power and ride equally decent bikes. Flat course and paceliners rotating equally, all of us under a same wind (environment) conditions.

Scenarios: Still wind; headwind and tailwind.

I am a TT solo cyclist and frequently "race" the same folks that ride on a road bike paceline, across the same segments. Those are strong riders, so just curious if one of the sides has a base advantage over the other, from an average drag perspective.

Consider a 2 or 3 riders paceline, that's the average I noticed.

Should I train more or join them? Haha!

Thanks for any insights.

If you're talking Strava segments, and all of you have equal fitness, the paceline wins - if for no other reason that any one of the three is "fresher" at the end of the segment because they've been doing a third of the work where you've been doing it all, so one of the three could put in a all out 1-2 min dig at the end to take a second or so away from your time.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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My experience, which is mostly 30-60 minute stuff, is that the over/under for # of road bikes in a paceline to equal my solo TT pace is right around 3. That's assuming everything steady state; i.e. ignoring the possibility of finish sprints/lead-outs from the paceliners.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks all for the responses!

In my specific case - we are talking about a mostly flat 16-mile segment we covered in the same mornign with a mostly straight 15mph tailwind (don't call me lazy, I rode the opposite section too).

All 3 road bike cyclists averaged 30.1mph and I averaged 29.5mph. I am positive this was close to an all in sustained effort for all of us, without final sprints, etc.

At this point I am satisfied with all responses, however if there is additional interest:

My take is that each of the 3 should have an average power output while leading, riding in the middle and riding on the tail of the paceline. Assuming all equal and considering a watt/kg scenario - I'm trying to figure if they won the segment making more or less power/kg than me in average.

I unfortunately do not have a power meter.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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wnusser wrote:
My take is that each of the 3 should have an average power output while leading, riding in the middle and riding on the tail of the paceline. Assuming all equal and considering a watt/kg scenario - I'm trying to figure if they won the segment making more or less power/kg than me in average.

I'd guess the 3 would have a slightly lower average power/weight, but slightly higher normalized power/weight.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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interesting... thanks for the response.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Really well sorted TT setups can go really quick on the watts/CdA.

To keep it really short, there's local KOMs set by pairs, trios, or small groups of Cat 3 and faster racers on training rides. I'm a lowly Cat 5 and on the TT bike I can get really close, or win, some of those segments.

Think about something 8 minutes long. I can do probably 320w on the TT bike that long. That group is going to have to rotate perfectly through folks churning possibly 400w on the front if they aren't a svelte little roadie. If your lead rider is going to hit crazy watts, folks won't be able to recover.

I've come across pretty quick pacelines on TT bike tempo rides a few times and passed by no problem.

Think about it this way..............for equal strength.............what's faster? The Tour de France peloton speed in the flats (on average) or the time trial speeds?

The peloton in the flats is probably 27 to 30 mph. The TT speeds over similar terrain for the UCI championships is at 30 to 32 mph.

There's your answer. IMO.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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William - I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking who's faster from a w/CdA perspective? The TT bike hands down. The guy in the front of the paceline pulling is going to have to put out considerably more watts to achieve the same speed as you on a TT bike.

Now if you're asking about their avg power over the segment, I'm not sure that matters at all. When they go to the back, they can essentially freewheel some of the time to recover, and probably push 100+ less watts than when they were pulling. It's a completely different effort than a solo steady TT. The guy who said their AP would be less but NP would be more than yours was right.

........

I just went an analyzed these rides, and it confirms what I've said.

The boys were pulling at like 380 watts to avg 30mph with a 15mph tailwind. I have avg 25.2 mph in a HIM on 230w with essentially zero headwind or tailwind (was straight side wind all day - out and back straight course). Give me a 15mph tailwind and I'll bet it would only take me 250w to get to 30mph.

Now the real question is, when do you want to take our TT bikes out together and snipe some of these segments. ;)
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you got me! Thanks for weighing in.

I became curious to learn which of us (a rotating paceliner or myself) exercised the most aerodynamic benefit in overall, based on our riding configuration.

Removing the power aspect - I acknowledge the TT solo will hands down benefit the most vs. the leader of a paceline, however as they rotate and become a 2nd or 3rd rider, their drag coef. diminishes - not sure if to a better level than I had, similar, or still worse.

No doubt there are other variables at play (e.g. rider size, etc.), however this time I had the chance to see our efforts on a same day and the proximity of results on a same "environment" got my mind to dive into these details.

I appreciate your point to power output. My take is that I'll keep working on the engine. :)

We need to catch up next time we meet at a group ride. By the way, I wonder what your face looked like when you started reading this thread "oh, wait a minute...this is all too familiar" ah, ah.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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wnusser wrote:
Removing the power aspect - I acknowledge the TT solo will hands down benefit the most vs. the leader of a paceline, however as they rotate and become a 2nd or 3rd rider, their drag coef. diminishes - not sure if to a better level than I had, similar, or still worse.
Per Broker, Kyle, and Burke, Med Sci. Sports Exerc. (1999) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10589873
Relatively speaking, the first three riders put out 1.00, 0.708, and 0.641power for an average of 0.783. So if the TT position lowers drag by more than 22% of a good road position, it will be faster.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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thank you, compelling take on it. I agree in some cases the power level required by the lead paceliner is simply not practical to execute, or something you can't easily recover from. I liked the comparison on the world class events.
I'm on a similar place, being a "fair" TT rider trying to improve and seeing as a benchmark what some of these guys can accomplish.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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 Not trying to be mean here but you are on a total snipe hunt here with your scenario! It is 2019 and I am empowering you to please get a power meter!
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on setup as cda differences can vary wildly.

I could see scenarios where you as the TT rider could have a cda of .22 or .30 depending on your fit and equipment being used that day. I could also see the group of roadies having a cda (at least the guy in the front) of .29 to .38 depending on equipment or if they are riding in the drops or on the hoods.

If it's .25 vs .32...solo TT bike rider is definitely going to win. Too many watts to overcome that. But if it's say .28 vs .30...I'm guessing the additional power a group of 3 can churn out working together is going to beat the solo TT rider.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [J7] [ In reply to ]
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Haha... Point taken, but the question comes from a good place. Got curious to see opinions on what are the underlying conditions we are exposed on the different setups for what seemed to be such a similar ride and environmental conditions to all.

I really liked your last sentence!
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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I would guess (and this is based on gut feel from riding pacelines and TTs, not from any maths!) that if that tailwind was a headwind then that would tip the scales more towards the roadies. Yes the lead guy is having to lay down more watts due to CdA, but the other 2 guys are also getting much more of a break to recover than they would in a tailwind.

Other factor is the different fitness requirements for ITT vs TTT vs roadie. There's a guy I do TTT with who I beat comfortably in ITTs - over 1 minute in our last race, which was a ~30 minute effort. But in TTTs he contributes as much if not more to the team than I do, he's a strong guy and seems physiologically much better suited to repeated big efforts and recoveries than he is to steady state riding. Another guy I TTT with is the opposite - we're very similar speed over longer distance ITT or bike legs in triathlons, but he really struggles to recover from efforts above threshold and has to be careful not to blow himself up in a TTT. So if the paceline and ITT riders were "equally strong" that doesn't necessarily make this an easier debate!
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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Solo TT or Road Pace line.

It depends.

With solo training, you are always working - except when you are not. You get tired and give yourself a little break or slow down which you wouldn't do if you were trying to stay on someone's wheel.

With others, you are getting a break on their wheel - except when you are not. If you are riding with riders of equal (or below your) ability, you get a recovery break. Then if you're riding with riders better than you, your time at the front might feel easier than trying to hang on their wheel.

Both make me a better rider mentally and physically. When possible ride with others because it's often easier to schedule rides alone.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Yeah I was like wnusser huh? 🤔

Then I just had to find the ride you were talking about to confirm 🤪.

I wasn’t sure where there was a 16 mile segment, but now I’m intrigued! Might not get another good N wind for awhile though. Friday looks decent, but I’d much rather ride with the club than try and kom hunt solo. Usually the only time I’ll kom hunt is if I have a specific workout on the schedule and can find a segment that would match up with it well.
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [wnusser] [ In reply to ]
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Hi, we have modelled this fairly extensively with reference to the Blocken Wind tunnel data, with any number of riders in any combination and produced a calculator which is free here: bit.ly/fftdraft

(and yes the road paceline is faster assuming same power)

regards from FFT
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Re: Solo TT vs. Road Paceline (2 or 3 riders) [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you, I can only wonder the discipline and willpower that it takes to manage, perform and further develop at your level. Not a lot of flexibility there. On my end, invested a kidney on a TT bike and now need to explore it all. On the side, it's nice whenever we can add some dynamics into 2,3,4 or 5 yrs old leaderbords.

I finally got my road bike adjusted, look forward joining some group rides. BTW, tomorrow seems promising indeed - too bad the timing is not good for me. I may have to do it today... Ha ha! See you with the group or on the road.
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