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Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies
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Does anyone out there have any knowledge to pass on about sodium supplementation via sodium citrate rather than good old sodium chloride?

I was listening to a recent episode of the TR podcast wherein they we're talking about how people need to sodium but can't process all the extra chloride very well, resulting in gastric distress during long events. I don't want to jump on a nutrition fad, but their description sounded a lot like how I have felt in the latter part of races. Also, there have been many times when I've taken a lot of salt pills and felt like they weren't 'working', which I usually try to fix with my salt. If the chloride was really the culprit there, then obviously that would just make the problem worse.

Then I guess I have two questions:

1. Is sodium citrate something people have switched to with good results?

2. How do you get it? On the bike I use skratch, which uses citrate for it's sodium, which is good. But I don't think I could drink nearly enough to get enough sodium. A 'correctly mixed' bottle of skratch (4%carb solution) will have 540mg of Na (three servings in a 24 oz bike bottle, 120 cals) and I drink two on a half distance bike leg, so I get about a gram, but common guidelines are in the range of one gram per hour. So I usually pop saltstick pills, 215mg Na per pill, from NaCl. The only other product I can find that uses citrate is saltstick fast chews, which only have a paltry 50mg Na. I'd have to take 20-30 of those on a half IM bike, along with my skratch and water, which doesn't sound appealing. Any other way to get it, besides ordering a bag and making my own pills?

Thanks

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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I used to use Skratch but as a heavy sweater planning for a hot A race last year, I switched to get more sodium from another product. I was lucky enough to get to test out some Precision Hydration products through Slowtwitch. Their products are predominantly sodium citrate if I remember correctly. I use their H2Pro tablets (~0 cals) but if you want something similar to Skratch with some carbs (hypotonic) check out their PH series available in different strengths;here's an example (for 1000mg/hr): https://www.precisionhydration.com/...yte-powder-drink-mix

I have stuck with their products after being provided with the free samples and they work well for me. I do believe the PH salt pills still have chlorine in them (not sure on content) but the PH mix linked above does not.

For my review, and everyone else's, check out this thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/2017_Slowtwitch_Nutritional_Reviews%3A_Precision_Hydration%3A_Call_for_Reviews!_P6436584/#p6436584
Last edited by: CyclingClyde: Mar 28, 18 8:05
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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The F2C Electro-Durance product uses sodium citrate. https://f2cnutrition.com/...ance/electro-durance It can be added to drinks or taken as "licks" during the bike and run. There is some chloride in there but minimal compared to something like SaltStick
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Hasn't it now been shown, via studies, etc., that you just don't need the extra sodium/electrolytes in races? It's just marketing. Your body does a great job regulating your blood plasma levels of electrolytes. People were doing just fine in Ironman races 30 years ago without swallowing a bunch of salt pills....
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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I used the clever marketing by the sodium people as a reason to drag my wife to the All-you-can-eat Chinese Buffet on the afternoon before my IM races. I'd douse everything in copious amounts of soy sauce (except for the soft-serve ice cream), and go back several times for new plates. I'd also down a whole bag of Sun Chips, just for the salt.

So, I didn't need to do this?
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
I used the clever marketing by the sodium people as a reason to drag my wife to the All-you-can-eat Chinese Buffet on the afternoon before my IM races. I'd douse everything in copious amounts of soy sauce (except for the soft-serve ice cream), and go back several times for new plates. I'd also down a whole bag of Sun Chips, just for the salt.

So, I didn't need to do this?

Well the carbs probably helped.. :)
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
People were doing just fine in Ironman races 30 years ago without swallowing a bunch of salt pills....

Is that true? I mean, sure, they did 'fine'. Do we know that Allen/Scott /etc wouldn't have gone 10 mins faster in Kona with a properly engineered electrolyte drink? Also, those guys are/were genetic freaks who could probably have succeeded on a diet of nothing but gummi bears in the weeks leading up to big races. What about the rest of us, the great unwashed masses?

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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CCF wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
People were doing just fine in Ironman races 30 years ago without swallowing a bunch of salt pills....


Is that true? I mean, sure, they did 'fine'. Do we know that Allen/Scott /etc wouldn't have gone 10 mins faster in Kona with a properly engineered electrolyte drink? Also, those guys are/were genetic freaks who could probably have succeeded on a diet of nothing but gummi bears in the weeks leading up to big races. What about the rest of us, the great unwashed masses?

There were more than just Allen/Scott doing triathlon back then. How about the other thousands of people who competed in triathlon races back then ('back then', as in, before the heavy electrolyte marketing)?
Was there a rash of age groupers keeling over from massive muscle cramps, that suddenly stopped happening when salt tabs hit the market? Nope.

Muscle cramps are from over-exertion. Its been proven over and over again, yet people still love the marketing......the hope, that they can solve their issues by swallowing expensive salt pills.
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Molina didn't, and it wasn't until he figured out the noxious swill that he took in on race day in Kona that he finally started performing up to his own standards.

When do you find you are needing more salt?

The Right Stuff has a blend of chloride and citrate salts.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
CCF wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
People were doing just fine in Ironman races 30 years ago without swallowing a bunch of salt pills....


Is that true? I mean, sure, they did 'fine'. Do we know that Allen/Scott /etc wouldn't have gone 10 mins faster in Kona with a properly engineered electrolyte drink? Also, those guys are/were genetic freaks who could probably have succeeded on a diet of nothing but gummi bears in the weeks leading up to big races. What about the rest of us, the great unwashed masses?

There were more than just Allen/Scott doing triathlon back then. How about the other thousands of people who competed in triathlon races back then ('back then', as in, before the heavy electrolyte marketing)?
Was there a rash of age groupers keeling over from massive muscle cramps, that suddenly stopped happening when salt tabs hit the market? Nope.

Muscle cramps are from over-exertion. Its been proven over and over again, yet people still love the marketing......the hope, that they can solve their issues by swallowing expensive salt pills.

Yep, I agree. I should have been more clear, I'm not talking about muscle cramps (I never get them). I'm talking about sloshing stomach, no desire to eat/drink, feeling 'puke-y', no desire to eat after a race, etc, etc. Basically, I'm talking about MY symptoms. I've never had a muscle cramps during a race, so I'm not trying to figure out how to stop them. My quest is to relieve GI issues. I have, for example, been unable to take in anything other than a very small about of water during an IM marathon. And I have in the past experienced stomach issues on the bike (sloshing around, no emptying, legs hitting stomach while in the aero position) less than two hours into a race, while ingesting nothing 'new'. Those types of things are definitely performance limiters. :(

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough!
Re-read your first post...
Unless you have a specific stomach issue with the particular product you were using, I doubt your stomach issues are directly related to salt content or type of salt in the product.
Maybe just try a different product, one of the very widely used ones here, like EFS or Infinite, or use water and solid food (gels/bars)? I tried Skratch a while ago, hated the taste so couldn't use it.
Friends of mine swear by rice crispy squares.....so there ya go.......experiment! :)

Cheers
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Hasn't it now been shown, via studies, etc., that you just don't need the extra sodium/electrolytes in races? It's just marketing. Your body does a great job regulating your blood plasma levels of electrolytes. People were doing just fine in Ironman races 30 years ago without swallowing a bunch of salt pills....

I am pretty sure this has not been shown. I would guess a hot IM with zero electrolyte intake would be a recipe for disaster for a good percentage of the participants. I think the vast majority of IM racers drink gatorade or other electrolyte containing liquids and many take salt capsules, etc. Replace that with plain water and no electrolytes with your calories (e.g., plain carbos of some kind with no salt added) and in a hot race many will not be able to simultaneously avoid (i) dangerous dehydration/heat stroke and (ii) hyponatremia. The hotter it is outside and the longer the person takes to finish, the greater the danger.

I think the OP's question was whether it is advisable to get some or all of your electrolytes in the form of sodium citrate. I do not think it is helpful to tell the OP not to take electrolytes.
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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And, oh by the way, Gatorade was invented and widely marketed more than a decade before the first Ironman. So I am not sure how you can say (sorry for the rough paraphrase) in the good old days before electrolyte marketing, people got through Ironman races just fine!
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Re: Sodium citrate, traineroad, and tummies [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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Drinking gatorade, IMHO, is not the same as downing 10 salt pills on top of an electrolyte sports drink, etc.
And triathletes, and pro cyclists, did just fine on water and fig newton's for years. (OK, and extra blood!).
Agree to disagree. :)
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