Shrug Off Some Aero Drag

Mar 1, 15 11:07

Post #1 of 41 (14094 views)

For the past 3 years, we've been having a lot of fun in our velodrome installations with a little trick that so many of you also know. It's sort-of our "go-to" trick after all the regular stuff (position, helmets, suits, etc...) has been aero tested.

For those of you who don't know, or those of you who have never seen the data, I'd like to share the importance of shrugging to improving your speed.

Below are photos of position A (no shrug) and B (shrug). It's easy to see how shrugging works -- the frontal area of the rider is much smaller in the shrug photo than in the non-shrug photo. Because our Track Aero System gives us real-time lap-by-lap CdA, shown in the bar chart, below, we can track the impact of the shrug while riding. We do what we call "rolling A-B-A" testing, where we do 18 continuous laps on the track: 6 laps of A, 6 laps of B, and to 6 laps of A again.

The shrug cuts about 3-4% off a rider's CdA, easily. Sometime, it cuts off even more aero drag. The questions we always ask are:

Have we put the rider in a comfortable enough position to enable the shrug to happen?
Is the shrug sustainable for the race distance?

What's fun is that it's almost always worth investigating a whole family of bike positions which might allow shrugging to be sustainable. Fun, huh?

I just wanted to share this with you guys. Please feel free to ask questions, or provide comments!

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:24

Post #2 of 41 (14065 views)

So far for this summers races I'm shaving my legs and adding in shrugging. Cool stuff coming from these types of tests.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:46

Post #3 of 41 (14025 views)

thanks for sharing the data. Out of curiosity, is shrugging similar to turtling? I get the impression that when i shrug, my shoulders actually get wider. i must be doing something wrong...

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:50

Post #4 of 41 (14015 views)

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

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Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:55

Post #5 of 41 (13994 views)

Thanks Andy,

Have you observed handling differences between the two positions? Interested in especially 500m, kilo, and 2k race efforts.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:59

Post #6 of 41 (13985 views)

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

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Last edited by: Staer: Mar 1, 15 12:00

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [echappist] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:06

Post #7 of 41 (13963 views)

echappist wrote:

thanks for sharing the data. Out of curiosity, is shrugging similar to turtling? I get the impression that when i shrug, my shoulders actually get wider. i must be doing something wrong...

Everyone's different, and that's the key. We use different words for different people. "Tuck your head in", "shrug", "make like a turtle", and "get small" are just a few of the different instructions we give people. Not all of them work. It depends on the rider, the helmet, the position, etc...

There are actually 2 ways that turtling helps. First, it usually presents a smaller frontal area. But second, it can also remove the shoulder-helmet gaps, and actually improve your Cd. But, as with everything we do, you have to try it to be sure.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [IREPathletics] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:08

Post #8 of 41 (13953 views)

IREPathletics wrote:

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

Yup, heightened proprioception. One of the cool geeky bike things that we're keen to try is the Lazer head tilt sensor. Can't wait to see if it can help us control head position to get some aero benefit.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:47

Post #9 of 41 (13859 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

That's part of art of it. Sometimes you have to back down on the aggressiveness of the position to be able to promote a good, sustainable shrug.

Quote:

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

Yes, it needs to be tested and trained. But a little goes a long way.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [IREPathletics] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:07

Post #10 of 41 (13722 views)

IREPathletics wrote:

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

Two things;
1. I tried taping myself two years, ago for Master's Nationals, but it didn't work very well and I will be the first to admit that I have no idea what I am doing. It would be great to see what the proper placement would be.
2. I noticed that Rohan Dennis was pretty heavily taped for his hour record attempt. It looked to me that at least some of his tape job might have been to help him hold his head position. I can search for the link to the pictures if you are interested

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:10

Post #11 of 41 (13710 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

One effective way IMHO to learn how to "shrug" and figure out a manner of doing so that isn't tiring is to bend your torso over in front of a mirror (a bathroom mirror works great because you can use the sink top area to rest your elbows) and then experiment with various arm and hand positions (especially hand height) relative to your torso to find a combination that allows a "relaxed" shrug. It's very easy to quickly try all sorts of elbows forward/ backward, elbows in/out, hands up/down combinations this way.

Mimic that position on your TT/Tri rig and you'll find that you'll naturally just "fall" into a relaxed shrug position.

That's what I did anyway...

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Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:33

Post #12 of 41 (13666 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

The general trend in the "shrug laps" posted above seems to say so.

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Last edited by: The_Mickstar: Mar 1, 15 14:34

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [The_Mickstar] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:40

Post #13 of 41 (13653 views)

The_Mickstar wrote:

The general trend in the "shrug laps" posted above seems to say so.

Yes, I should have mentioned that: the shrug was performed with a very aggressive aero position so the rider couldn't sustain it. The shrug's aero benefits degrade after only 3 laps.

The example is there just to illustrate that there can be a great benefit to shrugging. It might be worth investing in.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:57

Post #14 of 41 (13629 views)

An old Kraig Willet throwback suggestion to practice in front of the mirror but a good one. Another thing that can effect shrug comfort for me is hand width and position.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:02

Post #15 of 41 (13613 views)

Was it you who mentioned that�generally there is a better aero gain with a plus 15-20 degree up tilt on the hands vs elbows?

I have found that this is better for "shrugging" or getting your shoulders tight.

Do you think there is a connection (generally, yes I know every one is different)

Maurice

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:26

Post #16 of 41 (13574 views)

mauricemaher wrote:

Was it you who mentioned that�generally there is a better aero gain with a plus 15-20 degree up tilt on the hands vs elbows?

I may have mentioned that there is more stability. But, yes, a slight uptilt also cleans up the air flowing up front.

Quote:

I have found that this is better for "shrugging" or getting your shoulders tight.

Do you think there is a connection (generally, yes I know every one is different)

Maurice

Yup, totally. I like ski bends with slight uptilt on the forearms. Keeps you axially stable, and skeletally supported.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:26

Post #17 of 41 (13574 views)

^quasi Mantis position. Fickle position. Seems to work for some but not for others. When it works it can work very very well.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:54

Post #18 of 41 (13535 views)

Good info and thanks..

I did similar 3 seasons ago but mine was a povo version.. whilst on a trainer in the garage, facing some sliding doors, i noted my reflection, and over a number of weeks adjusted my position to minimize my frontal area... i ended up in almost an identical shrugged position as you did...

For me i had to add 20mm to the extension height to allow my functionality to remain, but provide enough relaxation to bring my shoulders up. This narrowed things almost exactly as per your images.. for me i can maintain it for 80-90% of an IM leg..

Re being comfortable etc.. i find it more comfortable as there is almost no tension in the shoulders.. i find i am almost hanging my chest / neck / head from my shoulders.. slung if you will.. *this is where raising the extensions helped here.. ) Also lower extensions forced me to extend my shoulders down and out to reach hence making me wider..... so a more "conservative" bar position can and in my case is faster..

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:08

Post #19 of 41 (13368 views)

AndyF wrote:

For the past 3 years, we've been having a lot of fun in our velodrome installations with a little trick that so many of you also know. It's sort-of our "go-to" trick after all the regular stuff (position, helmets, suits, etc...) has been aero tested.

For those of you who don't know, or those of you who have never seen the data, I'd like to share the importance of shrugging to improving your speed.

Below are photos of position A (no shrug) and B (shrug). It's easy to see how shrugging works -- the frontal area of the rider is much smaller in the shrug photo than in the non-shrug photo. Because our Track Aero System gives us real-time lap-by-lap CdA, shown in the bar chart, below, we can track the impact of the shrug while riding. We do what we call "rolling A-B-A" testing, where we do 18 continuous laps on the track: 6 laps of A, 6 laps of B, and to 6 laps of A again.

The shrug cuts about 3-4% off a rider's CdA, easily. Sometime, it cuts off even more aero drag. The questions we always ask are:

Have we put the rider in a comfortable enough position to enable the shrug to happen?
Is the shrug sustainable for the race distance?

What's fun is that it's almost always worth investigating a whole family of bike positions which might allow shrugging to be sustainable. Fun, huh?

I just wanted to share this with you guys. Please feel free to ask questions, or provide comments!

I tunnel tested this a while back, it was worth ~10-14W for me. It's trainable too. The more you do this during training rides, the more easily you can do it in races. Barbell/dumbbell shrugs can help develop these muscles.

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Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:11

Post #20 of 41 (13365 views)

Holding your head low and your shoulders tight is mostly just a choice.

People will chose to train 20 hours a week
Bike racers will chose to risk life and limb to contest a field sprint properly.

Hold yourself small when you tt. At worst it is slightly annoying, at best it is fine, just effing do it.

10+ watts!

You know how hard it is to train yourself to make 10 more watts?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:13

Post #21 of 41 (13362 views)

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

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Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:18

Post #22 of 41 (13349 views)

ZackCapets wrote:

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

Tony Martin and the successful hour record breakers of late are good inspiration for this.

It is hard to find a picture of Tony Martin since he has been world TT champ where his head isn't held perfectly and his shoulders aren't squeeze so tight that you wonder if he has had his collar bones shortened. He is like that for the *whole* tt

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 23:36

Post #23 of 41 (13208 views)

A quick illustration of Jack's point. Almost 30% narrower...

BTW, I tried to hold the position for a few minutes, quite uncomfortable.

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Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 5:29

Post #24 of 41 (13034 views)

ZackCapets wrote:

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

Well, that's why I posted this. However you do it -- using Aerolab for free, through our velodrome aero partners, or in a wind tunnel -- it's really worth testing which position, helmet, posture, and skin suit is best. It is the lowest hanging fruit available.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 6:30

Post #25 of 41 (12950 views)

This shouldn't be so hard for triathlete whom already should have good shoulder flexibility and strength from swimming. Swimming also helps your understand the need to get small and narrow.

I think one mistake that I see a lot is incorrect saddle angle. IF it's tilted downward in front, you end up using your shoulder muscles to push yourself back in the seat. This is often compensated by tilting bars up. But now all your done is create a wedge. That still means some of your weight is being pushed outward not downward. If you need your seat tilted down for comfort or can't roll your hip forward enough to properly rotate forward, then you might have the wrong saddle.

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