Shoulder flexibility (swimming)

Jul 16, 18 0:26

Post #1 of 23 (2465 views)

After years of being a mediocre swimmer I'm finally living in a place where I'm running out of excuses not to get good at swimming - 20m pool across the road, nice beach half a mile away, Masters swimming club that runs 12 sessions/week a couple of miles away. Been going to Masters for a couple of months, and swimming 3-4 times/week (this is a huge leap for me), have made some decent improvements and now starting to figure out what my limiters are.

Biggest limiter right now is my ability to maintain a high elbow at the catch. My general shoulder flexibility is OK - I can get a good stretch and glide before the catch with my ear touching my shoulder. But when I try to initiate the catch with a high elbow, my arms just don't seem to work the same way as everybody else's. My elbow either drops or moves right out to the side (and I mean right out). I've even had the coach in the water next to me holding my upper arm in one hand and lower arm in the other trying to demonstrate the movement, and he can't get the arm to move the way it should. I've had a few shoulder injuries over the years including an arthroscopy on my left shoulder (weirdly, the mobility on the left shoulder is marginally better than on the right), which might explain it.

Have others had similar issues? Any ideas on how to work specifically on flexibility to improve the range of motion?

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 0:52

Post #2 of 23 (2450 views)

cartsman wrote:

After years of being a mediocre swimmer I'm finally living in a place where I'm running out of excuses not to get good at swimming - 20m pool across the road, nice beach half a mile away, Masters swimming club that runs 12 sessions/week a couple of miles away. Been going to Masters for a couple of months, and swimming 3-4 times/week (this is a huge leap for me), have made some decent improvements and now starting to figure out what my limiters are.

Biggest limiter right now is my ability to maintain a high elbow at the catch. My general shoulder flexibility is OK - I can get a good stretch and glide before the catch with my ear touching my shoulder. But when I try to initiate the catch with a high elbow, my arms just don't seem to work the same way as everybody else's. My elbow either drops or moves right out to the side (and I mean right out). I've even had the coach in the water next to me holding my upper arm in one hand and lower arm in the other trying to demonstrate the movement, and he can't get the arm to move the way it should. I've had a few shoulder injuries over the years including an arthroscopy on my left shoulder (weirdly, the mobility on the left shoulder is marginally better than on the right), which might explain it.

Have others had similar issues? Any ideas on how to work specifically on flexibility to improve the range of motion?

Can you do this on land (go to 55s in)

https://binged.it/2zHnaX3

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 0:56

Post #3 of 23 (2445 views)

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 1:09

Post #4 of 23 (2436 views)

Can't do that with anything like the range of motion that he's getting in the video. In terms of rotating the elbow towards the top of the arm which I guess is the key movement as it allows you to bend your forearm down, I'd estimate I can only rotate less than half the range he's getting. Which would explain why when I try it in the water my elbow is splaying out to the side and my forearm is pulling diagonally down and sideways towards my chest.

Did also just remember (can't believe I'd forgotten) that I broke the radius in both arms just below the elbow about 10 years ago in a bike accident. So I'm guessing this is quite likely an elbow mobility issue, not a shoulder one.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 2:31

Post #5 of 23 (2410 views)

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 3:48

Post #6 of 23 (2366 views)

Thnks for that link. I've been swimming all my life and I still can't rotate like that

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [frenchfried] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 4:15

Post #7 of 23 (2343 views)

frenchfried wrote:

Thnks for that link. I've been swimming all my life and I still can't rotate like that

Nah neither Can I, I was thinking maybe he wasn’t doing the right thing, that was to give him an idea, but sounds like it’s more about mobility?

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 4:28

Post #8 of 23 (2336 views)

lyrrad wrote:

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

How do you train it?

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 5:44

Post #9 of 23 (2281 views)

RBR wrote:

lyrrad wrote:

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

How do you train it?

That's the question I want answered as well!

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 6:21

Post #10 of 23 (2256 views)

Probably stretching and strengthening.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 7:53

Post #11 of 23 (2202 views)

I have the same problem, tried for years to improve my flexibility but never could, sorry, no success story here. Ankle flexibility is important as well.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 7:54

Post #12 of 23 (2201 views)

lyrrad wrote:

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

Please share!!!

Color me another tight shoulder affliction-ado. I was thinking about this in the pool this morning. My internal rotators are the first thing to fatigue, especially on my left side...which is by far my tighter joint. Once the rotators go, its practically impossible to obtain the high elbow. Its my primary limiter to additional volume in the pool (well that and the wall-clock...but, I have some control over the wall-clock).

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 20:49

Post #13 of 23 (2038 views)

Tom_hampton wrote:

lyrrad wrote:

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

Please share!!!

Color me another tight shoulder affliction-ado. I was thinking about this in the pool this morning. My internal rotators are the first thing to fatigue, especially on my left side...which is by far my tighter joint. Once the rotators go, its practically impossible to obtain the high elbow. Its my primary limiter to additional volume in the pool (well that and the wall-clock...but, I have some control over the wall-clock).

I hate to say this but as usual the simplest answer is "swim lots". Look at Dev Paul's threads on swimming; he was badly injured in a bike crash about 2.5 yrs ago now, and so for 2 yrs all he could do was swim. IIRC, he averaged 1.5 million meters per year for 2016 and '17, which is roughly 30,000 m/wk with 2 weeks off per year. He has developed great flex in his shoulders and ankles and is now proudly swimming, and kicking, all 4 strokes. He even swam the 400 IM and 200 fly in a recent Masters meet!!! And he started his swim improvement quest at age 50 so age is no excuse. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 21:17

Post #14 of 23 (2025 views)

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 21:35

Post #15 of 23 (2019 views)

Swimming lots is definitely the plan, was just hoping there might be some supplemental dry land work that could help as well. Might have to get some StretchCordz, sounds like they could help with upper body flexibility and conditioning on the days I can't get to the pool, and will be handy for when I'm travelling and don't have access to a decent pool.

Must admit I'm focusing on upper body and not worrying too much about the kick at the moment. Ankles aren't very flexible, unless I have fins on then I'm getting almost no propulsion from kicking, just uses up a load of oxygen and tires my legs out. I seem to be able to maintain decent body position and balance (according to 2 coaches) even with little to no kicking, so I figure that with a wetsuit on then as long as I'm pointing my feet to minimise the drag then my lack of kicking won't cost me too much. Aim right now is just to get to a respectable MOP swim time and leave myself fresh for a good bike/run, once I achieve that then maybe I'll be enjoying it enough to start swimming like a proper swimmer and do the other 3 strokes, tumble turns, etc!

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 6:12

Post #16 of 23 (1950 views)

zedzded wrote:

cartsman wrote:

After years of being a mediocre swimmer I'm finally living in a place where I'm running out of excuses not to get good at swimming - 20m pool across the road, nice beach half a mile away, Masters swimming club that runs 12 sessions/week a couple of miles away. Been going to Masters for a couple of months, and swimming 3-4 times/week (this is a huge leap for me), have made some decent improvements and now starting to figure out what my limiters are.

Biggest limiter right now is my ability to maintain a high elbow at the catch. My general shoulder flexibility is OK - I can get a good stretch and glide before the catch with my ear touching my shoulder. But when I try to initiate the catch with a high elbow, my arms just don't seem to work the same way as everybody else's. My elbow either drops or moves right out to the side (and I mean right out). I've even had the coach in the water next to me holding my upper arm in one hand and lower arm in the other trying to demonstrate the movement, and he can't get the arm to move the way it should. I've had a few shoulder injuries over the years including an arthroscopy on my left shoulder (weirdly, the mobility on the left shoulder is marginally better than on the right), which might explain it.

Have others had similar issues? Any ideas on how to work specifically on flexibility to improve the range of motion?

Can you do this on land (go to 55s in)

https://binged.it/2zHnaX3

Hello

I wanted to personally thank you for posting a link to the video of the swimming elbow turn

I have heard for years about high elbow. And watched videos. I thought by me just having my elbow higher than my hand I was doing it correctly.

That was until your post. I tried it a few times then practices more as I was driving and today I went to the pool. In the very first length of 25 yards It took me two strokes less. 18 down from 20.

THANK YOU!

And because of the increased speed my hips were higher up

The speed gliding into the wall felt almost like when I wear a wetsuit

Last edited by: RBR: Jul 17, 18 10:40

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 6:55

Post #17 of 23 (1926 views)

Thanks for the inspiration guys!

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 7:13

Post #18 of 23 (1921 views)

windschatten wrote:

RBR wrote:

lyrrad wrote:

zedzded wrote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

Nup. he is right, shoulder mobility is a big driver of swimming technique.
Good news is that it is incredibly trainable.

How do you train it?

Wall stretches.... Elbow up, hand down and facing body.... like an inverse pec stretch.
.

I think I need a picture. I'm not visualizing what you mean.

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 10:19

Post #19 of 23 (1868 views)

RBR wrote:

zedzded wrote:

cartsman wrote:

After years of being a mediocre swimmer I'm finally living in a place where I'm running out of excuses not to get good at swimming - 20m pool across the road, nice beach half a mile away, Masters swimming club that runs 12 sessions/week a couple of miles away. Been going to Masters for a couple of months, and swimming 3-4 times/week (this is a huge leap for me), have made some decent improvements and now starting to figure out what my limiters are.

Biggest limiter right now is my ability to maintain a high elbow at the catch. My general shoulder flexibility is OK - I can get a good stretch and glide before the catch with my ear touching my shoulder. But when I try to initiate the catch with a high elbow, my arms just don't seem to work the same way as everybody else's. My elbow either drops or moves right out to the side (and I mean right out). I've even had the coach in the water next to me holding my upper arm in one hand and lower arm in the other trying to demonstrate the movement, and he can't get the arm to move the way it should. I've had a few shoulder injuries over the years including an arthroscopy on my left shoulder (weirdly, the mobility on the left shoulder is marginally better than on the right), which might explain it.

Have others had similar issues? Any ideas on how to work specifically on flexibility to improve the range of motion?

Can you do this on land (go to 55s in)

https://binged.it/2zHnaX3

Hello
I wanted to personally thank you for posting a link to the video of the swimming elbow turn. I have heard for years about high elbow. And watched videos. I thought by me just having my elbow higher than my hand I was doing it correctly.

That was until your post. I tried it a few times then practices more as I was driving and today I went to the pool. In the very first length of 50 feet I went from 20 stokes to 18. It’s truly amazing. THANK YOU!
And because of the increased speed my hips were higher up
The speed gliding into the wall felt almost like when I wear a wetsuit

Is your pool really only 50 ft??? I've swum many times in a 50-ft pool before but man, that is one short pool. The 25 yard pool is the standard U.S. short course vs 25 meters in the rest of the world. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 10:38

Post #20 of 23 (1849 views)

ericmulk wrote:

RBR wrote:

zedzded wrote:

cartsman wrote:

After years of being a mediocre swimmer I'm finally living in a place where I'm running out of excuses not to get good at swimming - 20m pool across the road, nice beach half a mile away, Masters swimming club that runs 12 sessions/week a couple of miles away. Been going to Masters for a couple of months, and swimming 3-4 times/week (this is a huge leap for me), have made some decent improvements and now starting to figure out what my limiters are.

Biggest limiter right now is my ability to maintain a high elbow at the catch. My general shoulder flexibility is OK - I can get a good stretch and glide before the catch with my ear touching my shoulder. But when I try to initiate the catch with a high elbow, my arms just don't seem to work the same way as everybody else's. My elbow either drops or moves right out to the side (and I mean right out). I've even had the coach in the water next to me holding my upper arm in one hand and lower arm in the other trying to demonstrate the movement, and he can't get the arm to move the way it should. I've had a few shoulder injuries over the years including an arthroscopy on my left shoulder (weirdly, the mobility on the left shoulder is marginally better than on the right), which might explain it.

Have others had similar issues? Any ideas on how to work specifically on flexibility to improve the range of motion?

Can you do this on land (go to 55s in)

https://binged.it/2zHnaX3

Hello
I wanted to personally thank you for posting a link to the video of the swimming elbow turn. I have heard for years about high elbow. And watched videos. I thought by me just having my elbow higher than my hand I was doing it correctly.

That was until your post. I tried it a few times then practices more as I was driving and today I went to the pool. In the very first length of 50 feet I went from 20 stokes to 18. It’s truly amazing. THANK YOU!
And because of the increased speed my hips were higher up
The speed gliding into the wall felt almost like when I wear a wetsuit

Is your pool really only 50 ft??? I've swum many times in a 50-ft pool before but man, that is one short pool. The 25 yard pool is the standard U.S. short course vs 25 meters in the rest of the world. :)

Lol I meant 25 yards

It takes me now 18 strokes a length so 25 yards

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 11:01

Post #21 of 23 (1834 views)

Same here. I watched the JonnyO video ages ago and thought I was doing it right, but today (a week and change after my first IM, where I was a bit disappointed with my swim) I watched these videos again and got in the water with determination to get this ingrained in muscle memory, once and for all.

Boom. Immediate improvement from the warmup (just trying to do the movement) all the way through the swim session. Clocked the same pace I was doing when I was in peak shape before the IM, except with a much lower effort. Once this becomes second nature, and the new muscle groups actually adapt... I can sense the potential to remove ~5-10 seconds off my pace.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [tessar] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 11:16

Post #22 of 23 (1825 views)

After spending a good chunk of the last 24 hours obsessively placing my hands on flat surfaces and rotating my elbows back and forth, I went to the pool a couple of hours ago and there's definitely some improvement already. Did work with paddles on forearms, sculling, swimming with clenched fists, all while thinking about that same movement from the video, and it all suddenly clicked. I've got a long way to go, but for the first time ever it felt like I was getting a really solid grip on the water. Thanks for all the tips! Just need to not get carried away now and give myself a shoulder injury...

Re: Shoulder flexibility (swimming) [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 11:30

Post #23 of 23 (1814 views)

Quote:

I suspect you're doing something wrong, rather than an issue with mobility.

x2

Further, the best way to get swim specific shoulder flexibility is actually NOT by doing various dry land stretches. Instead it is by swimming a decent amount or a lot, and doing that swimming with decent, good, or excellent technique.

And the best way to do that is to get specific instruction to show you what you are doing wrong EXACTLY and then specific instruction as to HOW EXACTLY to fix what you are doing wrong. Unfortunately, given the state of swim and triathlon coaching these days, finding smart and competent help like this is admittedly not super easy to do ... but we do have a few suggestions written up briefly here.

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