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Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively?
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EDIT: Upon further inspection, I can see that my average cadence for the 20 Minute FTP was 75rpm. I would like to link to this data for clarity here: https://www.trainerroad.com/...0-20-minute-ftp-test Furthermore, I would strike the word "radical" from the title, if I had it to do over. I might have used some percentage range instead. Having said all that, the question of whether to and how to safely increase cadence is still relevant and there are some very insightful answers below. I assume it is bad form to edit a title post facto.



Hello All,



Background: After 10+ years since my first triathlon and introduction to this forum (where I have lurked but rarely posted) I have decided to take my training to the next level. Training (and racing most of the time) with no electronic devices whatsoever, I have made steady progress over the years. I have rarely been dissatisfied with the results. In fact, I almost always PR races that are important to me. For the swim portion I am swimming in open water more with a group this year. For the running, I have a pretty good idea what I am doing (at least I feel good about the results of my training thus far). With respect to cycling data analysis, I am years behind the curve. I actually develop software by trade but always felt like bringing a bunch of battery powered gadgets along with me to the great outdoors was a bummer.


The New Newness: This year I am embracing all of the technology I can think of. I have a new fancy wetsuit, bike and pretty much everything I ever thought was cool and might make me faster. This, of course, involves a power meter, gps unit and training software. I bought the book "Training and Racing With a Power Meter" by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan (not read the whole thing yet) and currently have a time trialing Trainer Road plan going. I am wearing a Garmin 935, have a Garmin 520 for the bike and sync all this to Training Peaks etc.... The sport was feeling a little stale for me and all this gadgetry is making it more interesting and fun in some ways.


The New Awkwardness: My questions are about cadence. After doing a few open road rides, with Garmin Vector 2 power meter pedals, I noticed that my average cadence for a 50 miler, at around 80% race pace, was 65-67!! On the Trainer Road workouts there is a virtual coach telling me to try and get my cadence up to around 85rpm regularly. Like a good type-A athlete I am doing the thing that is very outside of my comfort zone because that is where I believe the gains may come from. Having said all that.... it feels VERY strange and I am winded quite a bit more than I would usually be for a similar effort. In addition, yesterday evening during an over/under interval workout called Avalanche Spire, I started to feel a little knee pain that I recognize as a warning sign.


Ok, the questions finally:


1. If I am trying to radically increase my cycling speed/power output for ultra distance triathlon, is it advisable (sans any more knee pain, of course) to continue to try and modify my cadence to align with the typical training plan for ultra distance triathlon (and supposed conventional wisdom/scientific consensus)?


2. Is there a general rule about how quickly one should try and ramp up said cadence?


Note: Thanks for all the tech articles, forum goodness and entertainment! Slowtwitch has helped keep me focused and inspired to improve in all areas of life.
Last edited by: downtowndj: Mar 25, 18 5:46
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have much advice for you on the 'how to make a change', but are you sure your cadence is that low? Have you actually counted it out yourself to make sure the Garmin is working? Unless your cranks are 185mm or something, I just have a hard time believing you would naturally fall that low. Anyhow, there is no chance that this is not a hindrance to your overall performance if your RPMs are that low, but more likely it hurts your run as much as your cycling in actual races as a low cadence stresses your muscles more and aerobic system less.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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Brett Sutton always has a few things to say about cadence. Trainer road, Swift etc etc are all looking at bodies - not triathletes. Have a read of the attached article and don't stress about it would be my advice. If you do try to change cadence my advice would be to do it over a year or couple of years, don't force it over a month or two - that will not work.

http://trisutto.com/...reat-cadence-debate/

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reply ericlambi.

The first ever 20 minute FTP test I did was Tuesday 3.20.18 and I see that the average cadence there is 75. https://www.trainerroad.com/...0-20-minute-ftp-test

So, I suppose that isn't as radical as I thought?




ericlambi wrote:
I don't have much advice for you on the 'how to make a change', but are you sure your cadence is that low? Have you actually counted it out yourself to make sure the Garmin is working? Unless your cranks are 185mm or something, I just have a hard time believing you would naturally fall that low. Anyhow, there is no chance that this is not a hindrance to your overall performance if your RPMs are that low, but more likely it hurts your run as much as your cycling in actual races as a low cadence stresses your muscles more and aerobic system less.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the link earthling. I had not run across that one yet for some reason.


earthling wrote:
Brett Sutton always has a few things to say about cadence. Trainer road, Swift etc etc are all looking at bodies - not triathletes. Have a read of the attached article and don't stress about it would be my advice. If you do try to change cadence my advice would be to do it over a year or couple of years, don't force it over a month or two - that will not work.

http://trisutto.com/...reat-cadence-debate/
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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outdoor endurance rides also frequently have coasting, stop signs, hills etc, where you are not riding at normal cadence...so the average observed outdoors frequently doesn't=the average you would race it.

similarly, cadence is normally a little different on a trainer,then outdoors.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24 wrote:
outdoor endurance rides also frequently have coasting, stop signs, hills etc, where you are not riding at normal cadence...so the average observed outdoors frequently doesn't=the average you would race it.

similarly, cadence is normally a little different on a trainer,then outdoors.

This! Training outside = lowest cadence.
Indoor/race is what should be compared.
Saying you got 75 on the FTP test makes it less of a change to 85+.
I dont know how to change it or how it should be done, but it is funny how different we all are and what feels natural when it comes to cadence.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, this is good! The outdoor vs indoor makes total sense. 75rpm seems much more within the range of my type/ability.


lassekk wrote:
dcohen24 wrote:
outdoor endurance rides also frequently have coasting, stop signs, hills etc, where you are not riding at normal cadence...so the average observed outdoors frequently doesn't=the average you would race it.

similarly, cadence is normally a little different on a trainer,then outdoors.


This! Training outside = lowest cadence.
Indoor/race is what should be compared.
Saying you got 75 on the FTP test makes it less of a change to 85+.
I dont know how to change it or how it should be done, but it is funny how different we all are and what feels natural when it comes to cadence.
Last edited by: downtowndj: Mar 24, 18 6:20
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know yet if it's effective, but I'll describe what my coach is having me do. My goals are a little different. I'm tracing track where you need to be effective across a wide range of cadences, with the critical part of races are often determined at cadences >120.

The workout is 30 minutes on rollers (not a trainer). 4 minutes at ~120 cadence, 1 minute at ~140. Repeat for the 30 minutes. Light resistance, though you will develop some good power typically at 140+ just because you have to to get that high.

If you can't make 120/140, then just pick numbers that are challenging, e.g. 80/100 or 100/120.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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No.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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 â€śI think that the evidence shows that in the real world on real roads under varying conditions of wind and slope and length and fatigue, riders don't use a single set cadence. They also don't use a single set amount of power, nor a single set value of crank torque, nor do they ride at a single constant speed, nor a single gear. I think that the evidence shows that riders vary all of these during a ride, especially in response to varying conditions. Good (and very, very good) riders constantly make choices about speed, power, cadence, crank torque, and gear ratio. That's why focusing on cadence to the exclusion of these other choices is a red herring.” - Robert Chung

“Cadence is a dependent variable, not an independent one.” Tom Anhalt

“Power production on a bike is really all about pedal force and tangential foot speed. Those 2 things, in concert with the terrain, demands, and equipment (i.e. crank length, gearing, wheel diameter, etc.) result in a particular cadence being "expressed". “ Tom Anhalt
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Succinct! And, from the author nonetheless. Thank you sir.


Andrew Coggan wrote:
No.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Two new sources for me to reference on the topic of power. I have seen Robert Chung's posts while searching the forums. Super complex (to me) engineering stuff but fascinating. Mr. Anhalt is new to me. Thank you.


FindinFreestyle wrote:
“I think that the evidence shows that in the real world on real roads under varying conditions of wind and slope and length and fatigue, riders don't use a single set cadence. They also don't use a single set amount of power, nor a single set value of crank torque, nor do they ride at a single constant speed, nor a single gear. I think that the evidence shows that riders vary all of these during a ride, especially in response to varying conditions. Good (and very, very good) riders constantly make choices about speed, power, cadence, crank torque, and gear ratio. That's why focusing on cadence to the exclusion of these other choices is a red herring.” - Robert Chung

“Cadence is a dependent variable, not an independent one.” Tom Anhalt

“Power production on a bike is really all about pedal force and tangential foot speed. Those 2 things, in concert with the terrain, demands, and equipment (i.e. crank length, gearing, wheel diameter, etc.) result in a particular cadence being "expressed". “ Tom Anhalt
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to comment on whether what you want to do is a good idea or not, but I will tell you that 40 years ago this was considered an important skill for bike racing, specifically pedal stroke smoothness and the ability to accelerate quickly without shifting (because we had a 2X5 machine with the shifters on the down tube). I'm a lot older and smarter now which is why there is a disclaimer.

Back then the bike came with a 52/40 and a 14/28 (If I remember correctly) and we would run around for the first few weeks in the spring on the 40 using only the 28 or the 25. We would literally spin like a rabbit for 100's of miles to build leg speed and smoothness in pedal stroke.

To this day I can spin the shit out of my bike and my stroke does not become "jumpy." Is it a skill a triathlete needs? I would say no. Is it a skill a cat 3 or better needs? Maybe, but you can probably do well without it considering the current technology.

Writing this makes me wish I still had my Raleigh Record. I may have to go search eBay later.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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I was taught that while cycling in the mid to late 1980's. I can still pedal smoother than most people at any cadence up to 115 but I don't think that helps me.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Another question if I may. When a cycling workout indicates that I should really try to get my cadence up to 85+ as part of an interval, would it make more sense to choose 80+rpm instead (as an example) to try and improve my spinning some? Or just chill in the 75-ish range like I have been doing for years (with no knowledge of FTP or anything). Split the difference? Add 2-3% to 75rpm? I feel like the answer is: "Make very small increases over time" as has already been suggested but I am not sure.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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downtowndj wrote:
Another question if I may. When a cycling workout indicates that I should really try to get my cadence up to 85+ as part of an interval, would it make more sense to choose 80+rpm instead (as an example) to try and improve my spinning some? Or just chill in the 75-ish range like I have been doing for years (with no knowledge of FTP or anything). Split the difference? Add 2-3% to 75rpm? I feel like the answer is: "Make very small increases over time" as has already been suggested but I am not sure.

Honestly, find a different workout or ignore the cadence aspects.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
Brett Sutton always has a few things to say about cadence. Trainer road, Swift etc etc are all looking at bodies - not triathletes. Have a read of the attached article and don't stress about it would be my advice. If you do try to change cadence my advice would be to do it over a year or couple of years, don't force it over a month or two - that will not work.

http://trisutto.com/...reat-cadence-debate/

Chrissie rode away from everyone with a remarkably low cadence.
I did notice that she increased it for the last miles before T2, however.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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as AutomaticJack mentioned, there's at least 40 (because that's how far i go back) and probably many more years of cycling tradition that emphasizes keeping your cadence up, and by up it's meant 90 or so rpm.

in many cadence studies throughout that 40 years, when oxygen consumption and whatnot are measured the studies generally allow a rider to choose a cadence to perform a task, along with being forced to ride at several cadences for the purposes of the study, and that "freely chosen cadence" is curiously around 90rpm, even when that higher cadence is "proved" (via the study) to be less economical.

however, i think it's pretty clear just by observation that cadences scale with effort, that is, they scale up as your effort gets higher. so, when you say "ultra distance triathlon" that adds a new data point. i think you'd find, pretty consistently, that the average cadence of top athletes riding a 40km time trial would be higher than the cadence of top athletes riding an ironman.

if you look at the really good ironman athletes, cadences in the 82 to 86 range seem about where they are. but, i don't think that means you should ride an average of 84. maybe you should. but if you're riding, say, a 6hr ironman bike leg, you're riding a time that might be 33 percent greater (slower) than a high placing pro. so, while your distance is the same, your time spent is greater, which means your effort is less (if we consider effort in this context to be your average power during the exercise compared to a known quantity for you, say, your FTP or your max power.

so, maybe your cadence for 112mi might be slower than the 84rpm a pro rides. maybe your "best" cadence might be that top pro's best cadence were he to race a 6hr bike leg, because perhaps then your effort and his are roughly the same. what average power would that top pro ride for a 6hr bike leg?

i have never observed it to be a negative to work on increasing one's cadence in cycling.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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I typically average around 70. When I switched to 150 cranks, it went up to 85. Now it's back down to 75. It doesn't' matter unless you think you're going to have a downhill or wind that maxes out your high gear.

I once did a TT in Alberta with a 20-30mph tailwind on the return leg. Even with my 56X11, I had difficulty, because I wasn't used to pedaling at 120rpm.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Mr DJ...Thanks posting, it's a good question and I want to try and give you a comprehensive answer.

I'm not into math....but even left brain guy like me can understand this equation: Cadence x Torque = Power. Some might wanna argue pedal speed but let's keep it basic for the sake of this discussion.

If you're hanging at 75rpm and making good power then one area where you can improve your performance would be with developing a bit more fluidity in your circle. Should you radically increase your cadence? To quoat Coggan, No! Must of us triathletes (read: humans) shouldn't radically change anything we're doing as it'll probably result in injury - better that you progressively/slightly increase your cadence over time.

As to how you might do that....
Do a 45min training ride once a week we'll call Spin-ups - 10min easy warm. 5min steady and moderate then do 10x 30 sec Spinups with 90sec easy between them. Spinup - Leave the bike in a gear that's comfy and at your normal cadence and then, for 15 seconds progressively, smoothly increase your cadence to a place that is your fastest possible spin BUT still smooth in the saddle. Then hold that for 15 seconds. Bring it on down to your normal, comfy cadence for 90sec between 'em. Finish with 10min easy spin. This is an easy workout so you can wedge into your training program almost anywhere. This is a neuromuscular workout - your improving how your brain talks to your muscles so you'll probably improve quickly - as you improve you'll find that your smooth spin becomes faster and if you want to add more challenge then hold the fast/smooth spin for 20, 30+ seconds before backing down.

Also, I think some off-footers might help early on. Again, 45min, on the trainer same warm up as above (10min easy, 5min steady, moderate), Then remove one foot from the pedal and place it on the frame of the trainer (when you first do this, stop pedaling so you don't go while and accidentally jam your foot into the spokes). For 30 seconds make the smoothest circle you can with one foot - no clunks, no surges, just smooth and fluid. Put that loose foot back in the pedal, make a few circles with both feet then pop out the other one and put it on the trainer frame and fine smooth circles with the other foot for 30 sec. Start with 10x 30 sec one footers w/ 60 sec normal spin between. To make this easier in the first few sessions put it in an bigger gear, as you get better make the gear smaller and the cadence higher so you you're challenge to keep it smooth with a faster (relative) spin. Again this too is neural muscular work; brain talking to body so be mindful and present and concentrate to expedite the improvement.

The goal here is to have your normal spin (let's call it 75 for argument) to bump up a bit over time and by increasing that number on that side of the equation your power will come up too (and, you might even run off the bike better as well).

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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Boy you have a lot of changes going on this year and that is probably trickier than you imagine. My first question is if you think your cadence decreased from previous years? Mid-60s is very low compared to most people, so I would think you would have noticed that your cadence was low before you finally got a computer.

In my experience the biggest indicator of crappy bike fit is a drop in cadence. All the compensation that you have to do hold a bad position inhibits natural movement. My first suggestion would be to ride your old bike with your Garmin and see if there is a difference of more than 1-2 rpm. If it is 10 rpm it is worthwhile looking at your position/saddle....

As far as ways to increase cadence, the simplest is probably just get a pair of rollers. Ride them in a very small gear on a low intensity (sub 120 watts type of easy) recovery day and focus on being smooth. Then just try upping the mph by 1-2 mph for the last 10 minutes without shifting.
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [downtowndj] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a good trick for you. When you're going downhill (in real life or while riding Zwift) put it in an easy gear and spin 90+ rpm. You'll have almost no resistance, so you can spin it up pretty easily and still be getting somewhat of a downhill break. After a few rides of doing this, you'll notice your natural cadence will be much, much higher. It's a great way to combine the cadence training you need into the rides you're already doing.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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For now, I just wanted to thank you for the reply and state that my bike split last year for the ultra distance in question was ~ 05:17:00. My goal is to get that down significantly. The old bike was ill fitting and I trained very little over the season for tri-specific stuff. Mostly singlespeed mountain biking /shrug. I am still pondering the rest of what you lay out in your post! Point taken that working on increasing cadence never hurts.


Slowman wrote:
as AutomaticJack mentioned, there's at least 40 (because that's how far i go back) and probably many more years of cycling tradition that emphasizes keeping your cadence up, and by up it's meant 90 or so rpm.


in many cadence studies throughout that 40 years, when oxygen consumption and whatnot are measured the studies generally allow a rider to choose a cadence to perform a task, along with being forced to ride at several cadences for the purposes of the study, and that "freely chosen cadence" is curiously around 90rpm, even when that higher cadence is "proved" (via the study) to be less economical.

however, i think it's pretty clear just by observation that cadences scale with effort, that is, they scale up as your effort gets higher. so, when you say "ultra distance triathlon" that adds a new data point. i think you'd find, pretty consistently, that the average cadence of top athletes riding a 40km time trial would be higher than the cadence of top athletes riding an ironman.

if you look at the really good ironman athletes, cadences in the 82 to 86 range seem about where they are. but, i don't think that means you should ride an average of 84. maybe you should. but if you're riding, say, a 6hr ironman bike leg, you're riding a time that might be 33 percent greater (slower) than a high placing pro. so, while your distance is the same, your time spent is greater, which means your effort is less (if we consider effort in this context to be your average power during the exercise compared to a known quantity for you, say, your FTP or your max power.

so, maybe your cadence for 112mi might be slower than the 84rpm a pro rides. maybe your "best" cadence might be that top pro's best cadence were he to race a 6hr bike leg, because perhaps then your effort and his are roughly the same. what average power would that top pro ride for a 6hr bike leg?

i have never observed it to be a negative to work on increasing one's cadence in cycling.

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Re: Should I endeavor to radically increase my cadence this year? If so, any practical advice for how to do it safely and effectively? [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I am just now learning about the evolution of the science aspect of the sport, really. I miss my 1980s steel frame bikes... even with the "suicide" brakes :-) Noted that the spinning like a rabbit may not be a skill that a triathlete needs.


AutomaticJack wrote:
I'm not going to comment on whether what you want to do is a good idea or not, but I will tell you that 40 years ago this was considered an important skill for bike racing, specifically pedal stroke smoothness and the ability to accelerate quickly without shifting (because we had a 2X5 machine with the shifters on the down tube). I'm a lot older and smarter now which is why there is a disclaimer.

Back then the bike came with a 52/40 and a 14/28 (If I remember correctly) and we would run around for the first few weeks in the spring on the 40 using only the 28 or the 25. We would literally spin like a rabbit for 100's of miles to build leg speed and smoothness in pedal stroke.

To this day I can spin the shit out of my bike and my stroke does not become "jumpy." Is it a skill a triathlete needs? I would say no. Is it a skill a cat 3 or better needs? Maybe, but you can probably do well without it considering the current technology.

Writing this makes me wish I still had my Raleigh Record. I may have to go search eBay later.
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