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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [bullshark] [ In reply to ]
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bullshark wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
If you can't float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.


Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it's on to mastering the pull.


I'm still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs...). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I'm 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pull buoy. I don't think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

I knew someone would say this and ya, I see this every single day at the pool, as the vast majority of casual swimmers have very poor body position, with their feet 1.5 to 2.5 ft under the water. However, I think body position is highly related to not only head position but also how you pull. If you keep your head down and reach way out and really pull hard, the very act of reaching and "pulling over the barrel" tends to lift the body. I see a lot of people who try to pull too fast and their arms just slip through the water without really grabbing a hold of the water. You should be able to feel the water as almost a solid force on your hands and forearms when you're pulling. Add in a light to moderate flutter kick, and then voila, your legs stay up. When kicking, try to point your toes and keep the flutter kick tight and close to the water surface.

Also, have you tried lessons with a good instructor/coach??? There's a guy at my club whom I've seen take several complete non-swimmers, afraid of putting their head in the water, to competent, efficient swimmers in 3 months.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [TriSliceRS] [ In reply to ]
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TriSliceRS wrote:
Thanks for posting... You just saved me a ton of wasted time this New Year - I was going to start working on my kick. I'll just start working on pull, EVF, and perhaps some body roll. (I got to cut another 8-9 mins off my 5k time... And get me down to 1h 03m ish)....

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about your kick. I worry about mine because the difference in a 50m - 200m race is decided by very little and I don't have to bike and run later on.
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [bullshark] [ In reply to ]
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bullshark wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
If you can't float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.


Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it's on to mastering the pull.


I'm still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs...). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I'm 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.


You need to correct your big leg sinking then. Yes, it's true that if your legs are sinking so much that you're getting 10sec/100 with a pull buoy, you gotta fix that first. But after you get those legs flat, I think you'll be shocked at how hard it is to gain even 5sec/100 just by better streamlining.

If it were just streamlining and not significantly added power in the EVF position and it was 80% streamlining and 20% power/EVF, it would be entirely possible to swim fairly fast fast (like sub 1:20/100yd pace for distance) with zero hard swim efforts, and just a meticulous focus on reducing drag. I think you know what the answer to that training method would be.

As said above though, as a recent-onset adult swimmer, I do feel that for raw beginners and those slower than 2:00-2:20/100yds, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, it's closer to the reverse of what Sheils says, with 80% streamlining and 20% EVF/power for that group. That's why those 2:20/100yd beginners can make so much progress with no hard swimming, just as TI recommends, and why almost no coach would prioritize these slow swimmers to do hard intervals to generate arm power rather than focusing nearly exclusively on streamlining and energy conservation by reducing extra mvmts. However, get to even basic intermediate swim ability and that rate of improvement disappears nearly completely. (I know this having gone through the entire improvement to big plateau with this TI method when I started swimming.) Sheila's book is clearly aimed more at the intermediate and above crowd who has fixed any leg sink that's costing 10sec/100.
Last edited by: lightheir: Dec 25, 13 9:59
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I don't get the difficulty with body position so much. I mean, yes, if you aren't flexible enough to get your arm comfortably above your head you are going to have trouble. Otherwise it's just you laying in the water trying to get your body as flat on the surface as it can be. Your legs are dropping a bit? Force the top of your chest and head down over your lungs (where the air is). Point your toes. Keep your legs mostly straight -- kick mostly from core/hip and feel the flexation hit mostly your ankle. Yes, your knee must move a little, but just a little. The end.

The EVF though, seems to be more difficult for people to understand. Most everybody likes to perform motions where they are strong. The EVF position requires a lot of flexibility and it is difficult to feel strong (like bench press strong) during its execution. Remember the engineering of swimming. You need to produce force in the opposite direction that you wish to travel -- with as little lateral angle as possible. Pushing down doesn't do much for you. Dropping that elbow and losing all that water at the beginning of your pull doesn't do much for you. But, you will feel stronger pushing down, and you will feel stronger dropping that elbow. Heck, you probably WILL be creating more force than EVF creates. It's just that most of those forces will be in a useless direction and you won't be going as fast.
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I swam a whopping 1500 yards yesterday. I tried the ankles crossed no kicking and immediately my legs sank to the point where I was pretty much standing. :-)

Focusing on the high elbow shown in the video made a difference and my shoulders got tired quicker. I could feel the amount of water I was grabbing (right word?). I'm sure I was still way off but I did see a little improvement.

I did an addition 500 yards on the kickboard and focused on not thrashing my legs and found a level that sped me up.

I'm so slow and have always been since I'm an adult onset swimmer but I enjoy it and would like to get faster. The competitive side of me that enjoys competing with myself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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1/3 your swim was kick work. Nice job!
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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That was in addition to the 1500! I was BAMF yesterday. The sun was out and coming through the big windows at the pool. It was quiet because no kids were allowed in and I was almost able to convince myself I was swimming outside in the warm sun. Until I got out. Brrr....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
Yes, I don't get the difficulty with body position so much. I mean, yes, if you aren't flexible enough to get your arm comfortably above your head you are going to have trouble. Otherwise it's just you laying in the water trying to get your body as flat on the surface as it can be. Your legs are dropping a bit? Force the top of your chest and head down over your lungs (where the air is). Point your toes. Keep your legs mostly straight -- kick mostly from core/hip and feel the flex hit mostly your ankle. Yes, your knee must move a little, but just a little. The end.

The EVF though, seems to be more difficult for people to understand. Most everybody likes to perform motions where they are strong. The EVF position requires a lot of flexibility and it is difficult to feel strong (like bench press strong) during its execution. Remember the engineering of swimming. You need to produce force in the opposite direction that you wish to travel -- with as little lateral angle as possible. Pushing down doesn't do much for you. Dropping that elbow and losing all that water at the beginning of your pull doesn't do much for you. But, you will feel stronger pushing down, and you will feel stronger dropping that elbow. Heck, you probably WILL be creating more force than EVF creates. It's just that most of those forces will be in a useless direction and you won't be going as fast.

Ya, basically you have to push water backward for you to move forward. I think calling the high elbow "early vertical forearm" may cause some confusion but then "high elbow" caused confusion also. i think the concept of "grabbing a hold of the water" with your hand and forearm might be a better way to understand it. When I'm pulling, it feels like I have a dinner plate on my hands even when I'm not wearing paddles.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm never sure how to best explain it, just that I want as much flat surface as possible pointing backwards when I start to pull. (if this is confusing, look at your forearm, the flat spot pointing back!)
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
bullshark wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
If you can't float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.


Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it's on to mastering the pull.


I'm still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs...). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I'm 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.


You need to correct your big leg sinking then. Yes, it's true that if your legs are sinking so much that you're getting 10sec/100 with a pull buoy, you gotta fix that first. But after you get those legs flat, I think you'll be shocked at how hard it is to gain even 5sec/100 just by better streamlining.

If it were just streamlining and not significantly added power in the EVF position and it was 80% streamlining and 20% power/EVF, it would be entirely possible to swim fairly fast fast (like sub 1:20/100yd pace for distance) with zero hard swim efforts, and just a meticulous focus on reducing drag. I think you know what the answer to that training method would be.

As said above though, as a recent-onset adult swimmer, I do feel that for raw beginners and those slower than 2:00-2:20/100yds, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, it's closer to the reverse of what Sheils says, with 80% streamlining and 20% EVF/power for that group. That's why those 2:20/100yd beginners can make so much progress with no hard swimming, just as TI recommends, and why almost no coach would prioritize these slow swimmers to do hard intervals to generate arm power rather than focusing nearly exclusively on streamlining and energy conservation by reducing extra mvmts. However, get to even basic intermediate swim ability and that rate of improvement disappears nearly completely. (I know this having gone through the entire improvement to big plateau with this TI method when I started swimming.) Sheila's book is clearly aimed more at the intermediate and above crowd who has fixed any leg sink that's costing 10sec/100.

Light - You're nailing it, I think this is exactly the group that Sheila is targeting. You have an excellent memory of the book from reading it 2 yrs ago, as the bold section above could have come straight out of the book:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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JenSw wrote:
That was in addition to the 1500! I was BAMF yesterday. The sun was out and coming through the big windows at the pool. It was quiet because no kids were allowed in and I was almost able to convince myself I was swimming outside in the warm sun. Until I got out. Brrr....

So your kicking was 1/4 of your total yardage (500/2000). Assuming that you swim 50% faster than you kick (i.e., you could swim 150 in the same time it takes you to kick 100), then on a time/effort basis your kick was 1/3 of your workout, e.g. 500 kick time-wise equals 750 swim on a time-basis which plus the 1500 swim equals 2250 time-wise, and 750/2250 = 1/3. This concept is useful for planning how much time a workout with lots of kicking will take. I've read that top swimmers will sometimes do an all-kick workout of say 5000 yds in 2 hrs, versus the usual 7000-8000 that they would usually do in that same time frame.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Ack! Math! My head hurts.

I get it. Kinda.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ShoMyOFace] [ In reply to ]
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ShoMyOFace wrote:
bjorn wrote:
There's no doubt the kick is aiding in body position for pretty much any level of swimmer. It doesn't mean you need a hard beat for distance swimming, just a relaxed kick that assists in keeping the body in line.


This is correct.

It drives me crazy that everyone is lauding Sheila T who spent her whole life swimming. She had an enormously efficient kick that enable her to hold back and maintain speed whole focusing on her pull. For the average AG'er on this forum, some focus on kick will make them faster - the goal is not to develop a 6 beat kick but one that flutters and enables the alignment and pull. Just letting your legs hang and do nothing, hinders everything about your stroke.

Not to argue because I do think the kick is important (e.g., I kick 1000-2000 per workout) but JOOC, did you swim with Sheila T in Mich or at UGA, i.e. how do you know for sure that she has a great kick??? Or are you kind of assuming she had to have it to swim at that level??? I'll bet she did but just wondered if you actually swam with her.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I'd actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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hiro11 wrote:
I haven't read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I'd actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

How do you know that though??? I don't buy that at all since all of those guys had/have very strong, powerful pulls, as well as very strong kicks. Maybe the best way to put it is that fast, efficient freestyle is a combo effort of a strong, high elbow pull combined with a good head position and a decent to strong kick to keep the legs up and add possibly some amount of propulsion. Also, Sheila T points out that Johnny Weismuller, aka Tarzan, swam with his head out of the water, but yet went 57.4 for 100 LCM, or around 51.0 for 100 yds, back in 1924 despite his body position being total sh*t. He did, however, use a high elbow stroke, high elbow being the term used for like 70-80 yrs before someone started calling it "early vertical forearm (EVF)".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't Popov also almost legendary for his big-time swim volume? To me, that almost screams huge conditioning factor. (Obviously great technique as well, but hard to deny superior conditioning and likely superior 'strength' if you're putting up monster yardage, no?)
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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hiro11 wrote:
I haven't read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I'd actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

Pretty sure this is the video you're referencing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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My understanding is that popov actualy produced less power than his competitors, but that it was the elimination of drag that allowed him to beat them - afaik this was tested. he also did pretty big mileage for a sprinter afaik and also likely had a monster kick (as did thorpe)
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
hiro11 wrote:
I haven't read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I'd actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.


Pretty sure this is the video you're referencing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU

Ya, I've seen that video before but had forgotten about it. I think though that the debate here may be a matter of semantics, as Sheila T points out that the deeper, straighter arm pull actually produces more power and she said that some sprinters are actually using that technique now in the 50 free. Sheila refers to the EVF as a "technique" but also emphasizes that it takes a lot of muscular endurance/power to hold that form across many, many repetitions of the pulling motion required to swim more than a 25. Also, having a good strong pull causes your body to ride higher in the water since the faster you go, the higher you ride, so the proper pull contributes to good body position and stability. The "clean rotation around a central axis" is part of a good pull also, and is perhaps another way of saying you're pulling in a controlled manner w/o swinging your arms wildly and w/o crossing over.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient.


I don't know about that. I would say they are easily the strongest swimmers in the pool -- without a doubt the most powerful.

Thought experiment...

You can receive one of two gifts -- Popov's pull power or his overall stroke efficiency given your own pull power. Which would you take?

Me? I'll take Popov's pull power for the win. Thank you.
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [SH] [ In reply to ]
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In my case, this is easy - I'd take stroke efficiency. One of these days I'll get it, maybe ;)
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient.


I don't know about that. I would say they are easily the strongest swimmers in the pool -- without a doubt the most powerful.

Thought experiment...

You can receive one of two gifts -- Popov's pull power or his overall stroke efficiency given your own pull power. Which would you take?

Me? I'll take Popov's pull power for the win. Thank you.

ABSOLUTELY, I'd take Popov's pull in a heartbeat.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
In my case, this is easy - I'd take stroke efficiency. One of these days I'll get it, maybe ;)

This whole discussion on pulling power vs stroke efficiency reminds me of an article I read in May 1997 in "Inside Triathlon", and have saved across the past 16.5 yrs. The author, Steve Tarpinian, who also happens to have written his own book on swimming for tri-people entitled "The Essential Swimmer", is discussing his observations from watching the 1996 Oly swimming on TV. He calls out a Swedish swimmer, Anders Holmertz, for being really inefficient because he has little to no kick, does not rotate his hips properly, and hence is "one of the worst fish-tailers I've ever seen". Yet what Holmertz undoubtedly did have, although Tarpinian does not admit this, was a really, really strong pull, as otherwise he would not have gone 1:48 in the 200 free and 3:50 in the 400 free (LCM of course), to place 5th overall in both events in 1996. Actually, Holmertz was a bit off his game in '96 since in the 1992 Games when he went 1:46 for a silver in the 200 and 3:46 in the 400 for the bronze. In a way, it takes a lot of nerve to criticize an oly-caliber swimmer, but Tarpinian's critique brought home to me how it really is mostly about the pull, at least for some swimmers who lack a strong kick. Consider that the current WRs in the 200 and 400 are 1:42 and 3:40 and it's clear to see that Holmertz, despite committing grievous errors in Tarpinian's eyes and undoubtedly many others' eyes, was going pretty darn fast, and in just a Speedo and goggles:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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funny you mention that Erick, RealAlbertan can confirm I'm a fishtailer. I've spent many hours in the pool trying to straighten it out
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Re: Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull... [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
funny you mention that Eric, RealAlbertan can confirm I'm a fish-tailer. I've spent many hours in the pool trying to straighten it out

Well, you're in great company then!!! Maybe that's just your natural style, as apparently it was for Holmertz. I'd take his times any day of the week, even if I had to become a "fish-tailer":)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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