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Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton
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First, thanks to Talbot and Lionel for making this sport fun and exciting!

His latest video was great but has me asking a lot of questions. The amount of people and opinions there for aero testing looked silly. Multiple bikes, two fitters, people from Canyon, ect.

Why not just get a bunch of hours on the velodrome and let Jim fit and test you. Spend two days there and be done with it. If needed maybe come back for a quick session if questions arise or you want to modify the fit. Seems way easier, cheeped, and likely better.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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It’s all part of the marketing. It’s not about best or easier anymore. Canyon is dictating these things at least for now. And I’m sure he’ll be fine.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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I get the point - but there's a lot to be gained from a couple of good heads there. It's Ivan O'Gorman and Jim Manton for the fit - Dan might have said something - but other than that, for sure test sizes and crank lengths, have Canyon's people there. For sure for the everyman (I can't really afford just a couple hours with Jim after Christmas so I get it) it seems really expensive, but look at the video for the custom cockpit that they did for Patrick Lange - Canyon is ok with footing some bills for sure.

Jim would probably be the first to admit he doesn't know everything about everything - Ivan the same. Combine some ideas, see things from a different lens. Jim said in the video there was no rush on things. It's not the same as you or I paying for 2 hours. This has a lot invested for all of the above.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Could of not said it better.

PS do you think Jan and Tony Martin have one guy?

Also that was no circus. I have seen a true circus. That was the most organized bike fit / session I have ever been to. I have seen ALOT! Hats off to Ivan and Jim. #dreamteam
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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It's pretty funny - but when it comes to Lionel it's all out there.

I'm glad you got some good footage - I got a lot out of it WRT IOG, and Jim sounds just as I imagine him! It's going to be a great partnership if everyone takes their time - with proper training and getting into an exceptional, powerful position, there really is no limits.

Documenting these things is really interesting - Lionel, Laura Phillip, Sebi - different ways of doing it. Some good, others in German (Laura insists that captions are coming haha) but ultimately such an amazing amount of insight and Lionel and Sebi did the EXACT same thing - it's interesting the different response.

Well done TC, it's just getting started!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that looked like the opposite of a cluster-f to me. That looked like a team of Marines or Seals had been told to make a beach landing and they were told they had to use bike fit as a weapon instead of guns, and they had been training for it for 10 years. Everybody had a job, knew what that job was, and was doing it with focus. I was definitely impressed.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Yeah, that looked like the opposite of a cluster-f to me. That looked like a team of Marines or Seals had been told to make a beach landing and they were told they had to use bike fit as a weapon instead of guns, and they had been training for it for 10 years. Everybody had a job, knew what that job was, and was doing it with focus. I was definitely impressed.

Well said! I'm so curious about the results, so I will follow his races and see.
I love to see things getting more interesting with Sanders.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Where can we find the video?
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Where can we find the video?


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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Lionel has done quite a bit of this process before. Hopefully this time he doesn't fall into the trap - like most who do aero testing do - of lower drag always being the right outcome.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [chrisrpdx] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, thanks!
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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most of the people I personally know that have been to the tunnel, do not use the lowest drag position, my self included
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you and your friends are pretty smart.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Yeah, that looked like the opposite of a cluster-f to me. That looked like a team of Marines or Seals had been told to make a beach landing and they were told they had to use bike fit as a weapon instead of guns, and they had been training for it for 10 years. Everybody had a job, knew what that job was, and was doing it with focus. I was definitely impressed.

Glad it looked that way because it didn't always feel as organized as I would have liked. We were working two separate locations about an hour apart (SoCal traffic), but I was lucky to have an amazing team that had everything set up for us at the outdoor locale - canopies, food & drink, even power, was at the ready. Not my first rodeo, and certainly not the biggest crowd I've dealt with when working with high profile athletes. Definitely one of the most professional, though.

Ivan showed up with a clearly defined plan of attack, which is an absolute necessity. Canyon was very well prepared, as well, and ready at the drop of a hat to change directions with equipment, which is also important for this type of work. You don't often find this with manufacturers, who sometimes let marketing get in the way of what's best for the athlete. Not Canyon, they seemed all about doing what's best for Lionel. They weren't there to make a commercial, they were there to get a job done.

Talbot is like a great referee, you don't even know he's there as he goes about his job, but the end result is pure quality. I can't state the importance of this enough. Having been through this many times, trust me when I tell you it can get real f*ing annoying have a camera in your face and a boom mic over your head all day long. No problem there at all. He knows what to do, how to do it, and he's practically invisible.

Make no mistake, Ivan is Lionel's fitter. They're taking a long-term approach working not only on position, but range of motion, biomechanics, etc. Lionel made a good choice in hiring Ivan. I would never have been in the position to devote that much energy to one project. I also believe Lionel made a great choice in going with Canyon. I know what his other options were. All were fine, but I was really impressed with the energy Canyon brought. I just love that company more and more.

No mention of the aero stick? AeroLab was there for support even when it had nothing to do with their sensor, and the data we acquired was very helpful. Obviously, I can't post results. Maybe I can show some yaw data without CdA. I'll check.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Talbot one suggestion. Maybe identify the people in the videos when they are talking. Only need to do it when you first see them in video but would be nice to get an idea of who is talking and maybe either the company they are with or their role in the current "project".

Could possibly even do something similar with special equipment as well. Good example during the most recent video was the Aero Lab on the front of the bike. Obviously that one has its name stamped on the side and you made a special clip just for that but there are other times that may pop up that would be cool to know what exactly what is being used. No need for any description just a name of the product.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:

No mention of the aero stick? AeroLab was there for support even when it had nothing to do with their sensor, and the data we acquired was very helpful. Obviously, I can't post results. Maybe I can show some yaw data without CdA. I'll check.
Hey Jim, I noticed in the video that the aerostick seems to bounce up and down quite a bit. Which made me wonder - how do vibrations into the unit due to road surface roughness and wind impact the data?
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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The simple answer is the vibration has no effect, but I'll let them explain how they've figured that out.

When I get some time, perhaps next week, I want to start a thread on the use of aero sticks...best practices, protocols, what to expect, what not to expect, etc. There's a lot of confusion about how these things should be used, and what information you'll glean from them. I'm sure AeroLab, as well as others in the field, will chime in. They're the experts - I just swing the swords they've forged.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Many thanks for the input Jim. Truly fascinating insight and kudos for the video production to Talbot to give us a glimpse into some of the world's foremost experts in their respective fields and to see the collaboration between yourself, Ivan and Canyon was brilliant. Truly excited for Lionel's 2019 season. Good on him for placing his trust in the experts.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jim,

I was pleased to see you are part of the team!

Thanks for the insights; just one question. What was Dan’s role?

Scott
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
Hi Jim,

I was pleased to see you are part of the team!

Thanks for the insights; just one question. What was Dan’s role?

Scott

Troublemaker, of course!

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Alwaysrunning99 wrote:
Why not just get a bunch of hours on the velodrome and let Jim fit and test you. Spend two days there and be done with it. If needed maybe come back for a quick session if questions arise or you want to modify the fit. Seems way easier, cheeped, and likely better.

Well, you've just suggested a process that would be significantly less effective than what they are doing. Getting a truly aero fit is a process, not a one step thing. Unfortunately much of the fit and bike industry has codified the concept of a quick fit resulting in permanent coordinates, and the result is that many, many triathletes underperform on the bike leg.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:

No mention of the aero stick? AeroLab was there for support even when it had nothing to do with their sensor, and the data we acquired was very helpful. Obviously, I can't post results. Maybe I can show some yaw data without CdA. I'll check.
Hey Jim, I noticed in the video that the aerostick seems to bounce up and down quite a bit. Which made me wonder - how do vibrations into the unit due to road surface roughness and wind impact the data?

Good question. The vibrations are certainly a concern with any aerostick. Luckily one of the specific areas of research in my day job is in flow-induced vibrations (flutter, vortex-induced vibration, galloping, etc.) and general fluid-structure interactions. The vibrations can be a source of noise and their influence on the measurements will depend on the vibration amplitude and frequency relative to the acquisition rate used in the sensor. This is accounted for internally using high frequency acquisition of accelerometer data - the vibration frequency and phase information can be picked up quite easily. Different mechanical designs for the mounting can be adapted as well to reduce the vibration level if they are deemed to be influencing the measurements in any appreciable way.
There is a reason we have a simple go-pro extension in use for this testing - we have tested this extensively against other mounting configurations and have a very good understanding of how the vibrations you could 'see' in the video impact the CdA estimation.

I am interested in contributing to the discussion on real world aero testing. We should try and consolidate the wealth of information in the historical ST threads (e.g., platypus thread), and add new information for current sensor technology and its applications (including limitations!).

Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
When I get some time, perhaps next week, I want to start a thread on the use of aero sticks...best practices, protocols, what to expect, what not to expect, etc. There's a lot of confusion about how these things should be used, and what information you'll glean from them.

Looking forward to that!

The AeroLab unit is at 9:51 in the video if anyone is interested.
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [AeroTech] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, thanks for the detailed response. Sounds like you have an in-depth understanding of the effects and how to filter the noise out to work with the data of interest.

Now the other question we are interested in is on the issue of real world yaw - some people say what really matters is mostly the 0-5 degree yaw whereas others are saying it's much higher like 10-15 degrees or so. What does your expertise say?
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Re: Sanders get rid of the circus and pay Jim Manton [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
Hi Jim,

I was pleased to see you are part of the team!

Thanks for the insights; just one question. What was Dan’s role?

Scott

as jim said, i was there to heckle. there were already 2 very good fitters, and that doesn't count 2 from canyon who work with the TT positions for canyon's pro tour team members. i didn't see how anything i might add would be of value.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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