Saddlewing v. Aerodrink

Mar 11, 03 20:11

Post #1 of 24 (7531 views)

So I went in to my friendly neighborhood tri shop to buy a profile Aerodrink system and came out with more questions than I should for such a simple errand.

Here is the deal. I am getting ready for my first 1/2 IM event, Wildflower. Rumor has it that the course is wicked hot, and I plan on bringing my own accelerade with me, so I figured I needed an extra bottle for such a long course. I have a road racing bike properly fitted with Profile aerobars, so the Aerodrink seemed like a good option.

The tri shop is out of them, but the guy there - who knows what I am training for - asked if I was certain that was what I wanted. He want on to explain that he has a similar set up, road bike with Syntace C2s. He tried the Aerodrink a couple years ago, but ditched it because it sat too low, too far forward, and was really uncomfortable to get to. He started using the XLAB Saddlewing instead - allowing the four bottles. He says it takes a little practice, but works really well for him. Of course, it's $45 for the Saddlewing, rather than the $15 for the Aerodrink.

Anyone want to offer up their opinions on this before I shell out $15 bucks for a waterbottle that I may never use or $45 for a mount that I may not need?

Last edited by: JohnA: Mar 11, 03 20:15

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 11, 03 20:42

Post #2 of 24 (7524 views)

Interesting forum going on at John Cobbs site. Basically, front "aero bottle" with straw caused huge amounts of drag in the wind tunnel. JC recommends rear mount with one bottle on the seat tube. Used aero bottles on my last few IMs but will switch to rear mount and seat tube cage for a total of 3 bottles. Also JC does not recommend the Xlab saddle wing that places the bottels high. Go for the lower Xlab model. I'm using the Minoura, it's much cheaper (<20 bucks). Strategy for my next half IM. Two large bottles on the back with race drink (accelerade/carbopro), 1 bottle on the seat tube for water grabbed at aid stations.

http://www.bicyclesports.com/...wPost.aspx?PostID=30

Check it out!

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [CS7] [ In reply to ]

Mar 11, 03 21:20

Post #3 of 24 (7511 views)

lemme clarify what Cobb said:

"Round bottles on the downtube are generally not the best for aero, but cause less of a problem than the straw on a front bottle system. Rear moounted bottles that stick way up in the air are not very good for a couple of reasons, it's hard to get your leg over them and they disrupt the air coming down your back. Lower mounted rear bottles are about the same as a down tube mounted bottle, which ever is easiest for you to get in and out would be the choice. For most people riding without water is not a good thing, Camelbacs work very well and never hurt the aerodynamics hardly at all. "

Best place for water bottle, seat-tube.. downtube about the same as low and behind the seat.

mike

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [stretch] [ In reply to ]

Mar 11, 03 21:44

Post #4 of 24 (7504 views)

Has anyone tried the new Neverrech system yet? I'm also doing Wildflower LC and was debating my drink mounting strategy too. I've used a Minoura cage before, but I found that I drank less than I should because the bottles were tougher to get to. I actually recently bought an NXT bottle for my Cyntace C2's but am now reconsidering based on John Cobb's comments. The Neverreach seems like an elegant solution- 64 oz in a behind-the-seat aero refillable container with a long straw. I just hate to shell out $99 until I've heard some reviews from others.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 2:47

Post #5 of 24 (7482 views)

I'm not sure the wind tunnel test gives the complete answer. The front monted bottle have some advantages, not covered by the wind tunnel test:

1. You don't forget to drink with a front bottle, it's very easy to drink even in technical demanding roads - you only need 2 seconds attention, don't need to remove your hands from the bars.

2. Using a frame/rear monted bottle is quite complex, and involves extra drag "pr. drink": - Move your hand, raise your head when drinking, disturbing the aero position, might not be able to hold a completely straight line. - The sum of this adds time.

3. It "hides" bars/gels placed on the stem.

I don't have a scientific conclusion - but I will continue to use my front bottle; and will check if it's possible to cut the straw.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [ajo] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 4:23

Post #6 of 24 (7472 views)

I really have to agree about the advantages of the front mounted drink systems. You will probably drink more because they are so easy to use. I don't buy the aero arguments since you need to get out of the aero position to use the frame mounted bottles.

The big disadvantage of them is that they are a sail in the worst possible place for dealing with cross winds. They catch the cross wind and turn your front wheel the wrong way.

I signed up for one of the never reach setups. That definitely looks promising, though I wonder about refilling them on the fly.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 4:37

Post #7 of 24 (7466 views)

As a few others have pointed out, aero is not the enitre story. If you were preparing for a 40k TT, then aero would take priority. However, preparing for a very hot 1/2 IM, what is more important, saving X seconds with more aero bottles and then losing 10 minutes on the run through dehydration, or losing X seconds b/c of the aero drink and then setting a run pr?

Also, there is a lot of time gained by not leaving the aero position to drink.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 4:46

Post #8 of 24 (7465 views)

In long races I have a profile bottle in front , and and 2 in back w/ a Minoura (sp) bottle holder. I drink out of the front - I have had no problem. I heat and bend the straw so that it is in perfect position. No problem with that at all, and IMHO the "guy at the shop" is someone you probably shouldn't take anymore adice from. Now, some purists will say the bottle in front messes up aerodynamics, but it works great so I use it.

Then, I use the 2 bottles behind the seat as my supply storage. For example, I like cytomax so I keep a 10x mixture in a bottle in the back (IM distance) and get water at the aid stations so that I can mix my own in the front bottle on the fly. Seems to work well for me.

You mentioned 4 bottles - are you talking 2 in back and 2 on the frame? Careful that you don't become a pack mule. Of course that could maybe also be said for my 3.

Note, I train and practice with this set up. Make sure that what ever you do works for you.

Good Luck,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Last edited by: david: Mar 12, 03 4:49

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 5:16

Post #9 of 24 (7450 views)

"Has anyone tried the new Neverrech system yet"

Haven't tried the Neverreach system per sae, but made my own that is fairly similiar. The big difference is that I can't refill mine, but that isn't important since I only do sprint/Oly tris at this time. It's great not to have to reach down to the frame or behind the seat and not have to get out of the aero system. I've tried front mounted, frame mounted and rear mounted and this neverreach style system is the best IMO. The only drawback with the Neverreach system is that it looks as if it could be awkward to refill on the fly.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 5:40

Post #10 of 24 (7436 views)

Use the aero drink bottle. I only use the spare bottles to reload. After a climb or before a climb, I can drink, I drink much more and it allows me to stay aero. I think so many shops just try to sell what they have in stock without reguard to the customers

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [CS7] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 5:42

Post #11 of 24 (7435 views)

I bet sitting up to drink or reaching back more than negates the very small aero benefits of not having the front bottle, plus if you drink more with the front bottle that would make a big difference

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 5:55

Post #12 of 24 (7428 views)

At the long races there are stations every 12 miles +/- I only carry my aero bottle and one other bottle then refill at stops. this way everything stays cold!

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 6:52

Post #13 of 24 (7399 views)

Is there a link to a site that has info about never reach... I've never heard of it, but it sounds interesting.

Thanks!

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [AHub] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 7:11

Post #14 of 24 (7385 views)

http://www.neverreach.com/page/page/276159.htm

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 7:27

Post #15 of 24 (7367 views)

I recently bought a SaddleWing and attached it to my San Marco Aspide Ti Saddle. The Aspide saddle has plastic coated rails near the back as well as two flange-like things separated by a v-notch. The result is that i had to mount the SaddleWing lower than you would on most seats (I suspect) and consequently I don't have enough clearance for my butt. I'm going to try the Flatwing and see if that works better.

Anyone try the Profile seatpost mount that is happy with it?

Matt

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [david] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 8:08

Post #16 of 24 (7342 views)

The issue with the bottle in the front was really just reach, not aerodynamics. I use a road bike, so I sit a little further back and a little higher than I would on a tri bike, seems that you would have to lean pretty far forward to get to the aerodrink.

You mentioned heating and bending the straw to get it in the right position - this sounds like it might work. My plan was to use a high concentrate of accelerade and mix my own on the ride in the aerodrink. I think I'll give that a shot. Of course, after reading the Cobb article I am wondering if I shouldn't just use my camelback.

One quick thing - do you bother using the mounting bracket? It is supposed to fit on my AirStryke bars without it.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 8:19

Post #17 of 24 (7334 views)

I don't use the mounting bracket b/c it fits perfectly in the Syntace bars. I'm not sure how good the fit is on Profile bars.

Personally I don't think a camel back is a good option. How and when do you put it on? What do you do when it is empty? I think you'll like the front bottle.

Even in road position, when down on the bars you should be close to the straw. If not, go the Home Depot and get some tubing and design your own so that it is in the optimal position. I actually have to cut my straw down. Then, I heat it over the stove just a little so that I can put a permanent curve that fits me just right. You could actually make your own out of one of those big sports bottles. Just cut off the top, stick in a sponge to prevent splashing, get some kind of straw, and then attach w/ velco strips assuming it is snug b/n the bars.

Good Luck,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 10:36

Post #18 of 24 (7295 views)

Another thing to consider with front bottles is weight balance. Not as big a deal on a tri bike, but I'm riding a road bike with the saddle moved forward to about 76*, so I've already got more weight over the front wheel than was intended by the geometry of the bike. A front bottle would add even more weight over the front wheel. Once you factor in cross winds and all, this could make for a squirrely ride. Behind the seat bottles or the Neverreach would be attractive in this situation because they would move weight to the back of the bike to help balance things out a little.

Re: Profile mount [mts] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 14:02

Post #19 of 24 (7238 views)

Itried the saddle mount for a while. Some parts of it were nice, the weight(less than anything else). The adjustibility was nice. The aerodynamics were iffy. For me it put the bottles inbetween my legs, not behind. My major beef with it seems to be unique to mine. When it was made one of the arms was a little to short so one of the holders would rattle loose about every thirty miles. The problem though, wasn't the cage it was the thing the cage hooks to. To make a long story short I frequently spent ten minutes at a time fixing it.
I now use the x-lab flatwing and the aerodrink.

The gopher that stays hydrated

I don't work here, I just live here

Re: Profile mount [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 18:35

Post #20 of 24 (7180 views)

I had the same problem with my Profile Waterbottle System, Loctite for the bolts holding the bracket to the seatpost clamp solved it. The actual cages, were not very good, I replaced them after losing many bottles with Pedros Plastice Cages with a small piece of velcro on the insideof the cage, worked miracles.

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 18:57

Post #21 of 24 (7176 views)

I support the "get the aero drink bottle up front" advice. The aero drawback is more than offset by the ease of drinking and refilling at aid stations. I use one up front and have a Minoura behind the seat carrier that I put one bottle in just in case I miss the grab at an aid station. John Cobb mentions the straw sticking up as the main drag problem so cutting it shorter may help if you can still drink from it easily.

camelback? [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 19:38

Post #22 of 24 (7168 views)

Anyone use a camelback...

I use one on training rides, fits a tube, inflator, levers and some gels...

anyone ever use one for races? are they even allowed?

Re: camelback? [taku] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 20:51

Post #23 of 24 (7156 views)

This is an interesting question. I use a Camelbak for all my long rides, but never in a race. I wonder why most people don't use one? I would but I don't want to look like a geek. If more people wore it, I would too. So much benefits yet I'm too chicken to put it on. Maybe at my next A race....half IM?

Re: Saddlewing v. Aerodrink [Allan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 03 22:22

Post #24 of 24 (7145 views)

The straw is the biggest problem? thats crazy, its like 1 cm wide, and the wind that it breaks then comes in contact with your body. I really doubt that having a bottle on the front of your bike will make a huge difference in a triathlon. maybe in a 40k tt where 1 second makes or breaks you, but not in an im or even a sprint.

Its like people spending $$$ on parts to save 40-50grams.

I take a piss in the morning, i lose 300g. I find that slightly amusing.

anyway, just my 2 cents

-kevin

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

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