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SRAM Force AXS
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Sign me up!!!
https://launch.sram.com/...IIiaV9C3TqrMletC1AiQ
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [XX29er] [ In reply to ]
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as an enterprising consumer might expect, there's one other place you can read about this new groupset ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, do you know if the new AXS groups can be configured to work with an 11 speed cassette? I hope so given the electronic nature of the group (no cable pull differentials to contend with).

I could be wrong but I assume I can't replace my freehub on my Aerocoach disc (ridden on a 2012 Speed Concept 7.8) with an appropriate 12 speed freehub?

Practise doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect!
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Wait, can you not get a 53x39?

"The spec and options are pretty much the same as with RED: 12 speed cassette; 10-tooth 1st position cog, and 3 chain ring size options, each with a 13-tooth differential (50x37; 48x35; 46x33)."
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [PrimalSteve] [ In reply to ]
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PrimalSteve wrote:
Dan, do you know if the new AXS groups can be configured to work with an 11 speed cassette? I hope so given the electronic nature of the group (no cable pull differentials to contend with).

I could be wrong but I assume I can't replace my freehub on my Aerocoach disc (ridden on a 2012 Speed Concept 7.8) with an appropriate 12 speed freehub?


A friend of mine bought it and realised afterward that no, you can't, and that given the current offer if you don't want disc brake you have very litle choice for the wheels you can use. For now I beleive Zipp's are the only disc wheels you can use ? Rear hubs available are Zipps and Chris king only I think.
Last edited by: strangename: Apr 3, 19 7:34
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [strangename] [ In reply to ]
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That is very disappointing! Seems like it wouldn't have been a difficult thing to implement either...

Practise doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect!
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Wait, can you not get a 53x39?

"The spec and options are pretty much the same as with RED: 12 speed cassette; 10-tooth 1st position cog, and 3 chain ring size options, each with a 13-tooth differential (50x37; 48x35; 46x33)."

Because no one needs a 53 tooth chain ring and everyone needs a 10 tooth cog.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [PrimalSteve] [ In reply to ]
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Chainring changeable quarq ftw!
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

as an enterprising consumer might expect, there's one other place you can read about this new groupset ;-)

As my understanding, there is no option for 50x37 in the new Force group, per the SRAM website and the latest GCN video on the groupset

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [strangename] [ In reply to ]
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strangename wrote:
PrimalSteve wrote:
Dan, do you know if the new AXS groups can be configured to work with an 11 speed cassette? I hope so given the electronic nature of the group (no cable pull differentials to contend with).

I could be wrong but I assume I can't replace my freehub on my Aerocoach disc (ridden on a 2012 Speed Concept 7.8) with an appropriate 12 speed freehub?


A friend of mine bought it and realised afterward that no, you can't, and that given the current offer if you don't want disc brake you have very litle choice for the wheels you can use. For now I beleive Zipp's are the only disc wheels you can use ? Rear hubs available are Zipps and Chris king only I think.


As with the MTB community, XD was an open license from SRAM that would allow ANY hub manufacture to develop XD to fit their specific system. I believe that it cost them nothing to do this. This link will take you to all current manufactures that have an XD or XDR option. https://www.xddriverbody.com/ Hope this helps... the only hold out was Shimano (from my understanding). I'll let you guess as to why :)
Last edited by: XX29er: Apr 3, 19 8:13
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [XX29er] [ In reply to ]
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XX29er wrote:
strangename wrote:
PrimalSteve wrote:
Dan, do you know if the new AXS groups can be configured to work with an 11 speed cassette? I hope so given the electronic nature of the group (no cable pull differentials to contend with).

I could be wrong but I assume I can't replace my freehub on my Aerocoach disc (ridden on a 2012 Speed Concept 7.8) with an appropriate 12 speed freehub?


A friend of mine bought it and realised afterward that no, you can't, and that given the current offer if you don't want disc brake you have very litle choice for the wheels you can use. For now I beleive Zipp's are the only disc wheels you can use ? Rear hubs available are Zipps and Chris king only I think.


As with the MTB community, XD was an open license from SRAM that would allow ANY hub manufacture to develop XD to fit their specific system. I believe that it cost them nothing to do this. This link will take you to all current manufactures that have an XD or XDR option. https://www.xddriverbody.com/ Hope this helps... the only hold out was Shimano (from my understanding). I'll let you guess as to why :)

you're right. the only problem is if you have an inventory of wheels that predate the current methodology that all (except shimano) now use: replaceable end caps for QR or thru axle; and replaceable drivers.

no. 11sp. that would defeat the whole purpose of the groupkit.

there is no need for any chain ring larger than 50t. if you think you need more than a 50x10, i'm happy to do that math for you.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
Slowman wrote:


as an enterprising consumer might expect, there's one other place you can read about this new groupset ;-)


As my understanding, there is no option for 50x37 in the new Force group, per the SRAM website and the latest GCN video on the groupset

i don't remember that on the lowdown i got on this group. but i'll check and report.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [XX29er] [ In reply to ]
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This link will take you to all current manufactures that have an XD or XDR option. https://www.xddriverbody.com/

Weird, Chris King isn't on that list, but they sell hubs with XDR?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


no. 11sp. that would defeat the whole purpose of the groupkit.


I don't think that it would defeat the whole purpose. In my case I'd like 2x11 wireless shifting with the smaller blip box and the AXS software. If they were to release an update/re-packaging to their 11s groupsets then I would agree with you.

Edit:
Unless of course we are taking the cynical (truthful?) view that they want to only sell full new groupsets and not allow upgrading parts of the kit.

Practise doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect!
Last edited by: PrimalSteve: Apr 3, 19 8:26
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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nickwhite wrote:
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This link will take you to all current manufactures that have an XD or XDR option. https://www.xddriverbody.com/


Weird, Chris King isn't on that list, but they sell hubs with XDR?

Great call...thinking that it's just a matter of SRAM updating the site. Have to believe there are a handful of manufactures that have an XD or XDR option, and not on that list/site.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is the pricing for this based in reality or is this another "trickle that shit up" moment?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [PrimalSteve] [ In reply to ]
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PrimalSteve wrote:
Slowman wrote:


no. 11sp. that would defeat the whole purpose of the groupkit.


I don't think that it would defeat the whole purpose. In my case I'd like 2x11 wireless shifting with the smaller blip box and the AXS software. If they were to release an update/re-packaging to their 11s groupsets then I would agree with you.

Edit:
Unless of course we are taking the cynical (truthful?) view that they want to only sell full new groupsets and not allow upgrading parts of the kit.

the new AXS system is organic in its approach. there is not, to my knowledge, any 11t 1st position 12sp cogset for a 2x system. correct me if i'm wrong. i think eagle is pretty much it and i don't think you want a 50t inner cog on your 2x system. that leaves you with 12sp cogsets that have a 10t 1st position cog (if it's SRAM).

so, with SRAM AXS, the derailleurs, shifters, chain, all optimized and available only for 12sp, what 12sp cogset with an 11t 1st position cog did you plan to put on this groupset?

if you're saying that SRAM should just have made this all available starting with 11 speeds, then it needs to accommodate you by tooling up for a whole new set of cogsets and chain ring sets. or, if it eschewed the 10t altogether, you'd have the whole crowd of folks who'd complain about SRAM's lack of the obvious choice: a 10t cog.

what SRAM did was make a choice based on breadth. if you just to the gear inch math, starting with 10t (a cog you'll need, but so sparingly you won't have worn out in 10 years of everyday riding) what you'll see is that this approach makes the most sense. the problem is that some folks have wheels from a half-dozen years ago, or older, that won't be cross-compatible. yes. that's a problem you and i face from time to time.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [commendatore] [ In reply to ]
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commendatore wrote:
Is the pricing for this based in reality or is this another "trickle that shit up" moment?

did you read my article on this? apparently not.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [seppo17] [ In reply to ]
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I've done that math.
  • Mechanical Advantage:

    • 50/10 = 5 (higher top end)
    • 53/11 = 4.818
  • Delta Mechanical Advantage (assuming a SRAM 12sp 10-33 cassette):

    • Using a 53t (mean of 0.336), going from...

      • 13 to 12 is 0.34
      • 12 to 11 is 0.401
      • 11 to 10 is 0.482
      • 15 to 14 is 0.253 (for reference)
      • 33 to 28 is 0.287 (for reference)
    • Using a 50t (mean of 0.317), going from...

      • 13 to 12 is 0.321
      • 12 to 11 is 0.378
      • 11 to 10 is 0.455
      • 15 to 14 is 0.238 (for reference)
      • 33 to 28 is 0.271 (for reference)
This tells us a few things:
  • With either chainring, the jump from 12 to 11 is a relatively large change in feel. From 11 to 10 is even more drastic.
  • The use of a 50t rather than a 53t brings brings the jump from 12 to 11 into a more "normal" feeling range. 11 to 10 is still big, but should feel like less of a jump than with the 53t.
  • In either case, per the reference lines, anyone telling you that gaps at the high end of the sprocket are too big is full of it. You need the gaps that big for it to feel like a more "normal" progression between sprockets.

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Re: SRAM Force AXS [XX29er] [ In reply to ]
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MSRP for SRAM Force eTAP AXS = $1250 - $2000 per their website.

Is this actually cheaper than Sram Red eTap?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
MSRP for SRAM Force eTAP AXS = $1250 - $2000 per their website.

Is this actually cheaper than Sram Red eTap?

RED eTap is about $1,000 more than Force eTap. that makes Force eTap AXS about a quarter to a third less costly than RED eTap. while the least expensive RED eTap complete road bikes i could find were about $7,500 (canyon) and most were $10,000 or north of that, apparently the bikes will start out in the $4000s, complete, with this groupset. but i haven't seen yet what those complete bikes are, or how they're otherwise spec'd.

again, some of this is on the front page article!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Koz] [ In reply to ]
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Koz wrote:
Delta Mechanical Advantage

Don't use that. Take the ratio between the gears. i.e. 14->15 is a ~7% gear reduction, 10->11 is a 10% gear reduction.

What you're calling "delta mechanical advantage" doesn't scale well for comparisons. It makes a given rear gear jump look bigger if you're in a bigger chainring, and it inflates the magnitude of jumps in the high part of the range compared with jumps in the lower part of the range. So a 46/10->46/11 jump is .418 and a 33/28->33/33 jump is .179, but your legs will feel the latter as a massively wider step, because it's an 18% reduction whereas the former is a 10% reduction.

Similarly, for plotting gear progression, you should use the log of the gear ratios so that jumps of the same ratio have the same size on the chart.
Last edited by: HTupolev: Apr 3, 19 9:35
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
commendatore wrote:
Is the pricing for this based in reality or is this another "trickle that shit up" moment?


did you read my article on this? apparently not.


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The Force version, which I saw 2 weeks ago, will sell in the aftermarket at prices a quarter to a third lower than you'd spend on the RED version.

You didn't list the MSRP of Red, or any prices for force. But you have a vague statement that this will be cheaper than the former. Apparently you thought that was sufficient.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
Slowman wrote:


as an enterprising consumer might expect, there's one other place you can read about this new groupset ;-)


As my understanding, there is no option for 50x37 in the new Force group, per the SRAM website and the latest GCN video on the groupset

you're right. only the 2 smaller chain ring configs are offed in Force. so, 48x35 and 46x33.

i did a little calcing. a 48x10 is 126 gear inches, same as a 53x11. so, that's what you get with a 48x35 and a 10-whatever in force etap.

that said, force cranks use the same 8-bolt pattern as do RED cranks. RED chainrings are all direct mount. so, you could buy either the direct mount RED 50x37 w or w/o the integrated Quarq PM, and it'll bolt directly onto the force crank.

me? i wouldn't do that. if i ever need a gear bigger than 126" i'm probably already pooping my pants.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lightheir wrote:
MSRP for SRAM Force eTAP AXS = $1250 - $2000 per their website.

Is this actually cheaper than Sram Red eTap?


RED eTap is about $1,000 more than Force eTap. that makes Force eTap AXS about a quarter to a third less costly than RED eTap. while the least expensive RED eTap complete road bikes i could find were about $7,500 (canyon) and most were $10,000 or north of that, apparently the bikes will start out in the $4000s, complete, with this groupset. but i haven't seen yet what those complete bikes are, or how they're otherwise spec'd.

again, some of this is on the front page article!


You have nearly zero info about the pricing about this groupset aside from that one sentence about mid-$4k bikes spec'd with it.

I went directly to the SRAM web page to pull the pricing info; would help if you quoted their estimates directly in your article since price will be a main driving factor for those interested.

Right now, amazon sells sram red eTap for $1400, at least that's what it seems to me. If this group could come in at $1000-1200 (the low end of the sram webpage estimate), that would be nice.
Last edited by: lightheir: Apr 3, 19 9:48
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