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SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile....
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone who thought it would be otherwise is fooling themselves.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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WTC has entered the chat lol
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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I’m looking for Michael Shapiro’s email. Not to tell him that xxxxCowboy did precisely ZERO Ironmans, but rather to tell him that HE has ZERO credibility as a journalist for either not already knowing that or for knowing and printing a falsehood.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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The Washington Post actually gave it a pretty fair shake - highlighting some of the external peculiarities with James and his whole endeavor:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...triathlons-100-days/

Quote:
Billing himself as the “Iron Cowboy,” Lawrence aims to conquer 100 full-distance triathlons in 100 days. Set to finish Tuesday, he has said he wants to push the limits of human endurance while raising funds for an organization that claims to fight human trafficking.

His plan is simple, if maniacal: He hits the local pool at 5:30 a.m. and swims for about 90 minutes. Then he hops on his bike for a loop around Lindon that takes five or six hours. Then, after a break, he starts his daily marathon, which normally takes around seven hours. It all adds up to about 15 hours of daily exercise, which supporters can, and do, follow online or even in person.

But controversy has trailed him, too. Ironman, the corporation that owns the majority of triathlon events worldwide, has urged Lawrence not to use its brand name. Some triathletes have criticized his use of IV injections to stay hydrated, because a dose of more than 100 milliliters in a 12-hour period would be prohibited in a World Anti-Doping Agency signatory event. (WADA, which has no jurisdiction over Lawrence’s event, declined to comment.)

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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so that i know, can someone help me out with a full list of the legitimate gripes about james lawrence's initiative here? meaning, whether you agree with the nature of the gripe or not, what is the entire list of problems that folks have with him, other than silly frivolous stuff. i guess i'll start with:

1. the bike isn't (or isn't necessarily) no-draft
2. there are some IVs during this, which is a no-no per the code. this is one of the gripes, yes?

and then there are 3, 4, 5 and so on. can someone help me with the list?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.

okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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None of the triathlons were on certified usat courses.

He likely received outside support from “fans” and other entities.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.

okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."

The difference here is marathon is a generic term and Ironman is a brand name owned by WTC
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.


okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."

OK I see your angle. If Kipchoge broke 2 hrs in the marathon under non IAAF rules, then James covered 100x100 Ironmans under Ironcowboy rules, if and only if we are talking to the general media....it is why I had a beef with the entire "sub 2 marathon broken" headline myself. That was not a marathon by any normal athletic standards, it was under Nike rules.

Hey I am supporter of what Kiphchoge achieved and what James achieved. I'm just not a strong fan of misrepresenting achievements (just like I don't like candidates that inflate resumes). On ST I have been a strong fan of the athletic achievement, while be a critic of the conflation of what he is doing with standard Ironman. I think I have been objective from both angles
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]
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Tribike53 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.


okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."


The difference here is marathon is a generic term and Ironman is a brand name owned by WTC

we're all pretty much aware of that. and, by the way, i speaking of nomenclature, i still see WTC used a lot, but as i recall that term was sunsetted quite a few years ago. i'd thought it was "the ironman corporation" now. anyway...

i understand what ironman's concern is. i'm asking what every else's lists of concerns are. i didn't think people were miffed on the corporation's behalf, but because he used the term "ironman" to describe what he was doing, and among other things i don't see him now doing that, and i wonder if he was using that term but then changed it, or always referred to these as full distance events? and then there's just that separate thing of how you go about describing what you're doing to the outside world. i just think our sport has always been awkward that way.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.


okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."


OK I see your angle. If Kipchoge broke 2 hrs in the marathon under non IAAF rules, then James covered 100x100 Ironmans under Ironcowboy rules, if and only if we are talking to the general media....it is why I had a beef with the entire "sub 2 marathon broken" headline myself. That was not a marathon by any normal athletic standards, it was under Nike rules.

Hey I am supporter of what Kiphchoge achieved and what James achieved. I'm just not a strong fan of misrepresenting achievements (just like I don't like candidates that inflate resumes). On ST I have been a strong fan of the athletic achievement, while be a critic of the conflation of what he is doing with standard Ironman. I think I have been objective from both angles

thank you. so... was his IG page saying he's going to do 100 IMs? and he changed it? or did it always say what it says now, that he's doing 100 full distance triathlons?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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DieselPete wrote:
I’m looking for Michael Shapiro’s email. Not to tell him that xxxxCowboy did precisely ZERO Ironmans, but rather to tell him that HE has ZERO credibility as a journalist for either not already knowing that or for knowing and printing a falsehood.

Oh, give him a break. Someone had to draw the short straw at the SI sports desk and bang out this blurb.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Would “iron distance triathlon” work?

Gripes:
1. Drafting on the bike
2. iVs
3. Outside help (including pacing from people who joined him during the day, so not from “competitors”)
4. Pool swim

But of course the real gripe is not that his rules are different from the rules of triathlon, much less Ironman, but that by blurring the lines and wildly overreacting to Ironman’s letter James is creating confusion and controversy where none are necessary. Being a good marketer he is probably doing it on purpose.

Macca is doing a similar thing with the sub-7 sub-8 talking about the attempt to do “the fastest Ironman ever” under 7 or 8 hours, respectively, and “break the record”.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Jun 10, 21 14:40
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]
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Tribike53 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think there only one real group of gripes. This is conflating his tris with Ironmans while doing a wetsuit pool swim, draft legal bike and using IVs for recovery.

It he stuck to ironcowboy140.6x100 there is no misrepresentation.

As it stands triathlon already has drafting and triathlons have pool swims. But ironmans don't have wetsuit pool swims and they don't have draft legal rides and IVs are not part of the WADA code that all normal triathlons fall under.

It's conflating what he did with Ironmans that most of the gripes come from.


okay. but when i look at his own - what - think it was his IG page, what that says is 100 full distance triathlons. so, did it begin by saying he was going to do 100 ironmans in 100 days, and then he changed it? i mean, i hear you, but we have this problem in our sport with nomenclature. if you're this guy, and you want to speak to the slowtwitch audience, you're good with "full distance." but if you want to speak to a broader audience, then it's kind of got to be "ironman," in the same way that if you're trying to break 2hr in that exhibition nike put on and you want the world to know what it is you're doing, you've got to call it a "marathon."


The difference here is marathon is a generic term and Ironman is a brand name owned by WTC

Exactly. If I say that I am going to run a marathon in Boston (lower case m) for 26 straight days for charity, I can do that and not be full of $hit. I might be doing a wonderful thing.

If I tell people that I am going to run the Boston Marathon for charity (even once) and do not enter and then adhere to the rules of THE Boston Marathon, I have said something that is full of $hit.

xxxxCowboy, by furthering the storyline that he is doing "Ironmans" is 100% full of $hit. And any media outlet that says that is what he accomplished is dead wrong and derelict in their journalistic duty.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Would “iron distance triathlon” work?

Gripes:
1. Drafting on the bike
2. iVs
3. Outside help (including pacing from people who joined him during the day, so not from “competitors”)
4. Pool swim

But of course the real gripe is not that his rules are different from the rules of triathlon, much less Ironman, but that blurring the lines and wildly overreacting to Ironman’s letter James is creating confusion and controversy where none are necessary. Being a good marketer he is probably doing it on purpose.

Macca is doing a similar thing with the sub-7 sub-8 talking about the attempt to do “the fastest Ironman ever” under 7 or 8 hours, respectively, and “break the record”.

thank you. i appreciate that. this is exactly what i asked for. i would however ask this gentle question, in the spirit of elucidation, and while respecting all opinions on this: what makes what he did against the "rule of triathlon?"

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it said (says) that he was doing 100 Ironman distance events.
They have been careful not to promote Ironman or promote what he’s doing as Ironmans but might have slipped a couple times in live feeds.

What is odd to me is that Ironman is heavily promoting their Virtual Races and could have partnered with someone like him to carry the flag for the value of self guided events during COVID season.
Last edited by: CanUsa: Jun 10, 21 14:46
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
kajet wrote:
Would “iron distance triathlon” work?

Gripes:
1. Drafting on the bike
2. iVs
3. Outside help (including pacing from people who joined him during the day, so not from “competitors”)
4. Pool swim

But of course the real gripe is not that his rules are different from the rules of triathlon, much less Ironman, but that blurring the lines and wildly overreacting to Ironman’s letter James is creating confusion and controversy where none are necessary. Being a good marketer he is probably doing it on purpose.

Macca is doing a similar thing with the sub-7 sub-8 talking about the attempt to do “the fastest Ironman ever” under 7 or 8 hours, respectively, and “break the record”.


thank you. i appreciate that. this is exactly what i asked for. i would however ask this gentle question, in the spirit of elucidation, and while respecting all opinions on this: what makes what he did against the "rule of triathlon?"

Are there any 140.6 races that allow drafting? I would say that pack riding the bike section, in a 140.6 mile endeavor, is against the rules of triathlon. Let alone the IVs and whatnot.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

OK I see your angle. If Kipchoge broke 2 hrs in the marathon under non IAAF rules, then James covered 100x100 Ironmans under Ironcowboy rules, if and only if we are talking to the general media....it is why I had a beef with the entire "sub 2 marathon broken" headline myself. That was not a marathon by any normal athletic standards, it was under Nike rules.

Reading your comment about what a marathon is, which is exactly right BTW, reminds me of ST when I would say that the run off the bike at an Ironman is NOT a marathon. People would skewer me for saying that.

Carry on.

E

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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [CanUsa] [ In reply to ]
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CanUsa wrote:
I think it said (says) that he was doing 100 Ironman distance events.
They have been careful not to promote Ironman or promote what he’s doing as Ironmans but might have slipped a couple times in live feeds.

What is odd to me is that Ironman is heavily promoting their Virtual Races and could have partnered with someone like him to carry the flag for the value of self guided events during COVID season.

this is the only thing i've seen. but it may have been edited along the way. i don't know.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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DieselPete wrote:
Slowman wrote:
kajet wrote:
Would “iron distance triathlon” work?

Gripes:
1. Drafting on the bike
2. iVs
3. Outside help (including pacing from people who joined him during the day, so not from “competitors”)
4. Pool swim

But of course the real gripe is not that his rules are different from the rules of triathlon, much less Ironman, but that blurring the lines and wildly overreacting to Ironman’s letter James is creating confusion and controversy where none are necessary. Being a good marketer he is probably doing it on purpose.

Macca is doing a similar thing with the sub-7 sub-8 talking about the attempt to do “the fastest Ironman ever” under 7 or 8 hours, respectively, and “break the record”.


thank you. i appreciate that. this is exactly what i asked for. i would however ask this gentle question, in the spirit of elucidation, and while respecting all opinions on this: what makes what he did against the "rule of triathlon?"


Are there any 140.6 races that allow drafting? I would say that pack riding the bike section, in a 140.6 mile endeavor, is against the rules of triathlon. Let alone the IVs and whatnot.

i don't know of any such current race. but i also don't know of anything in the rules that would prohibit it. and, look, i come at this from a different place than many of you. 4 of the first 5 multisport events i did were draft-legal. the only one that wasn't DL was the ironman (in 1981). i've always felt that multisport was a big tent, and a much bigger tent than many triathletes acknowledged.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Within the link visible within your screen shot, at one time, the word phrase ‘Ironman distance’ (possibly upper case, but might’ve been lower case ‘Ironman’) was used. It appears to be changed now.
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [CanUsa] [ In reply to ]
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CanUsa wrote:
Within the link visible within your screen shot, at one time, the word phrase ‘Ironman distance’ (possibly upper case, but might’ve been lower case ‘Ironman’) was used. It appears to be changed now.

alright. thanks. the naming of our sport has had some interesting "moments." a couple of decades ago the owners of IM held (in its statements to me) that they owned iron+anything. they owned the prefix iron. they pretty well forced out of existence a friend of mine's clothing company called irongirl (and she was the first to use that term in commerce). les mcdonald urged all of us to use the term "olympic" as in "olympic distance." this was in the run-up to get triathlon the olympics and les thought that would be a good idea. then, once the olympics were in, the IOC asked les to not use that term, and tried to get the whole sport to stop using it. as i recall, his idea was to call it the "triathlon distance." our sport's leaders have always been grabby about the names we use to identify a distance. that said, i fully acknowledge IM's trade rights, and i appreciate the more recent (since 2005 or so) reasonable hedges they place around their trade rights.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SI's IronCowboy article verbiage makes me smile.... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My beefs are less athletic more ethical/interpersonal. The IVs, the shady charity activity for both this and 50/50/50 and the holier-than-thou attitude.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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