The issue isn't whether or not to push the pace or train hard, but how we should use our training time most effectively.

Apply stress, take it away, get stronger. Repeat.

What type of stress, when, how often?

Let's say you've been training for a marathon for 14 weeks you have 8 weeks left. You need to taper in there so that leaves 4-5 weeks of build. What do you do with that time to get the best out of it? If you're training to run 6:10 pace for 26.2 miles you should probably dial that in so you have an MP workout every week. Threshold is important so lets throw some of that in there. What next? Let's say you'll have 2 weeks of increased volume and intensity and then a rest week and then two more volume and intensity weeks. I say throw throw 2 fast-finish long runs into the last week of volume/intensity on those cycles. But I would say that those would be the only ones in the Marathon prep.

"I say throw throw 2 fast-finish long runs into the last week of volume/intensity on those cycles. But I would say that those would be the only ones in the Marathon prep."

Why just a couple? During a whole 3 months of training? As long as you are running long anyway, why not run at goal pace a bit more often? Not that it will make or break you ...

"Why just a couple? During a whole 3 months of training? As long as you are running long anyway, why not run at goal pace a bit more often? Not that it will make or break you ... "

It won't make you, but it will probably break you.

It won't make you, but it will probably break you.
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I nominate that for post of the year! Well put.


Running , particularly, is a big balancing act full of trade offs that you have to contend with. For every shorter, faster run, theres a longer run you could have done that day. For every longer slower run, there's a faster run you could have done. What about long AND fast? There are consequences. I had a coach once tell me that you want to find your limit and train just short of it because going over will end your season.

Jocke brought up an intersiting point with regard to tri-training that you *should* be able to go longer and harder more often because of the days off in between (assuming you are taking them). I'm still in th elearning stages of figuring out where this limit is as I think our sport is still in the early stages of figuring out exactly how this can be done most effectively.

In one of my earliest posts on base training I explained the reasons behind lots of "LSD" (zn 1 & 2) running. Early in the training cycle it is the most efficient way to get the most out of your training with the least amount of consequences (given the time, of course).

Re: kannouchi - I had originaly intended to hit on this point, but fogot. Kannouchi, though he has set world records, is also trying to win races. In order to do so, he needs to be ready to drop a mile or two in his race that is well past his LT to separate himself from the pack (dejavu? Someone else said this, right?). For the rest of us who don't win marathons....is there a point? Just something to think about.

BTW - There's a local marathon coach that I run with occasionaly. he has a fairly conservative plan for all of his Boston qualifiers (including a female who's gone 2:43.....he has a PR of 1:06 in the half). We discussed the very aggressive plan that a friend of mine has used, and tweaked, for three years now an has run dissapoining maray after dissapointing mary. The guy has gone sub 52 for 10 miles and 1:13 in the half, but has only run 2:44, 2:53, and 2:55 for his marathons. He runs high volume and high intensity a lot.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"Jocke brought up an intersiting point with regard to tri-training that you *should* be able to go longer and harder more often because of the days off in between (assuming you are taking them). I'm still in th elearning stages of figuring out where this limit is as I think our sport is still in the early stages of figuring out exactly how this can be done most effectively. "

I don't necessarily agree. A triathlete has two other sports to train for--as such if they are training in a balanced way they may have less energy to spend on running sessions because of the needed recovery from the other sport's quality sessions.

Barry,

A few thoughts.

I think there are two considerations here for the 'serious' and 'experience' runner:

1) What constitutes a long run?
2) How do you best do them?

So:

1) To my mind there are three definitions of a long run - the incidental, the non-marathon race specific and the marathon. The first is simply the longest run you do. If we're honest it probably has less to do with specific endurance considerations, and more to do with a mix of habit and an ingrained idea that it 'burns fat' (and while I understand that it's true that the longer the run without fuel, the greater the body's tendency to burn fat as fuel, it is to my mind not as worthwhile as greater overall training stess leading to more likely calorie deficit). The second is, at its peak, a longer than race pace run used to train the body for the stress of continuous running on race day. It's a 'time on your feet' thing dealing mainly with impact stress. The third is similar to the second, but tends to never actually approach (let alone exceed race distance).

2) I'm not a fan of unfocused long runs. I'd rather see overall fitness raised with sweet-spot tempo work at CP90 than trudging around for hours without real purpose. However, once you have a goal race that is going to ake over 60 mins to complete, I think that long runs have a place in the progression as follows:

STEP ONE - get running (volume through frequency, then duration to a max of 60min runs at slow pace. Thanks to Paulo and Gordo for finally convincing me of this)
STEP TWO - get fit (maintain duration but increase proportion of time spent at CP90 from 0% to ~30%)
STEP THREE - get race ready (maintain duration - but NOT % of time - at CP90 as STEP TWO, but aditionally build one other weekly run up to a xaimum of race mileage+1 for up to half-marathon etc, or to 2.5-3hrs/20-22miles for marathon. For a marathon, this can and should take a while.)
STEP FOUR - final touches six to two weeks out from the race (drop the distance of the long run slightly but do sections of it at Race Pace and with a fast 'finish' - my fast finish builds through 15 mins and ends 5mins before the end of my run. Exactly how much Race Pace and the size of the blocks depends on the race and the athlete. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING TO DO WITHOUT THE OTHER STEPS SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED! Alternatively, run other races: halfs and 20-milers for the marathon, 10Ks and 10-milers for the half.)

Obviously intervals etc are not in here, but I think a periodised approach to the long run is best. In some ways, long runs are to below-FT racing what tempo and intervals are to over-FT racing, and I wonder about their value outside of race-prep (unless it's a case of "I fancy a long, run today, wanna come?").

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

so what was your run split at IM Germany? I'm just interested, b/c it's a pretty uncommon training plan.

It not so much the speed of the run, it's working within your HR target workout zone. Runs vary depending on what phase of training you are in. For example early pre-season running, your long run should be in HR zone 2.5 to 3.0. Then as the season approaches you may want to start your LSD run in 2.5 to 3.0, then finish strong in 3.0 to 3.5. Basically it is all about HR, speed will come after you put in your milage and train your heart and body to run faster with a lower HR.

I can imagine what kinds of workout the one guy runs. Sounds like a classic over-trainer (a 2:44 is pretty decent, though) ... Tell us about this coach's "conservative plan" ... Somewhere (RW probably) I read that one current marathon coach keeps his subjects running at 80 % of goal pace at least 80 % of the time (for those who like formulas) ... High mileage, built up very slowly over time, though ... Conservative like that?

In my last marathon buildup, I would like to think I trained right, but maybe not ... In a "typical" 60-mile week, I might do 12 to 18 of those miles at goal pace or faster (tempo): 8-10 would be done during my 10-12 mile "medium long run (goal pace run)" ... 4-5 would be done during one tempo or inteval session ... and 3 or so during my 15 to 22-mile long run ... Everything else was at least 1 min. slower than goal pace ... Pretty traditional ... Maybe even more mileage at slower paces would have been better ...

would you consider it being a dick if one pointed out that a 'paradox' is a 'contradiction', but you don't explain where the contradiction is here...because he trains with specificity?...running fast to get fast is a paradox?...if anything the contradiction is that running slow is a way to train for running fast...as has been pointed out here, many, many people, including world class athletes, believe that one should train as hard as they can while allowing for maximum recovery and avoiding injury....so kanuch follows this plan...what is the paradox or contradiction?

"And two-time U.S. Olympic marathoner Pete Pfitzinger cautions that slow running can also become sloppy running after 15 miles or so, which could lead to injuries."

This is what I found with my long runs, and my solution was fairly simple. I run at just slightly slower than my current 7:35-8:00/mile comfort pace, but not so much slower that my form changes. It's pretty difficult for me to run at a 9:00 pace and maintain the same form as I do at 7:45. So I run at 8:00 to 8:30 or so, and take occasional walking/stretch breaks every couple of miles. It was far more punishing and I was far more sore when I ran slow than when I ran at a comfortable pace and take occasional breaks.

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Experiment of one, but this has been my experience over the years with longs runs, and I experienced a modest amount of success as strong runner in triathlon competition.

1. The long run needs to be staple of your training plan year round. The actual length will vary depending on the time of year, but suffice it to say that, unless you are focussing on something else it's good to get out at least once a week for a run of at least one hour in duration.

2. Personally I found a strong correleation between the pace that most of my longs runs were done at over years and years, and the best possible pace that I could hold the whole way in an IM triathlon. I could typically hold a pace of a minute per mile faster than this in 1/2 IM race runs and in standalone marathon races. Most long runs and non-specific training runs were done at 7:00 min/mile.

3. In the off season, it was just about getting the run done at X-pace. I did not really concern myself with it. However, in early season and in specific race prep, I would up the pace in the final half or final quarter of the run to 1/2 IM race pace and then hold this pace until the end of the run( for me this was about 6:00 min/mile)

4. I would regularly do long runs in as hilly terrain as I could find - sometimes 2 hours of constantly going up and down. For some reason I found these sorts of runs, very helpful for the specific demands of triathlon running. Not sure why, but I surmised that in a traithlon you are NEVER running on fresh legs, and running up and down hills does take a bit of a beating on the legs. If I could hold a steady 6:00/mile at the end of 2 hours of going up and down on fatigued legs, I knew I was ready for a good triathlon run performance( assuming bike fitness was there as well).

Just some personal observations.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That's somewhat the same type of training I do. Long runs week in and week out, lots of hills in base training and then some more focused paces as a-races approach.

It seems to me that for IM training your long runs and long bikes are really important--like a quality type of emphasis--so solid long runs are essential.

Do you find that you can run a lot faster after the taper than you can even train during a build? Last year I barely hit 6:20 pace at all during training but run a 30K at 6:19. I'm not sure if others have the same experience with run training for triathlon.

"Do you find that you can run a lot faster after the taper than you can even train during a build?"

I found that I would carry around a fair amount of fatigue in my legs during bigger volume training in the build up to important races. I knew that I had hit the taper dead-on when I would get off the bike, and have to hold myself back on the first few miles of the run, but still running a a good pace - even in an IM. That was my sign that I had hit everything just right.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"Jocke brought up an intersiting point with regard to tri-training that you *should* be able to go longer and harder more often because of the days off in between (assuming you are taking them)."

Barry,

Thats a good point. If you come to triathlon from a modest to strong running background, you will find that you can get by on LESS running and still maintain decent standalone running performances and run strongly in triathlons. This was my experience and I suspect it is yours as well. You will not set absolute running PR's, but you can still come amazingly close to them or get right back to them quickly if you focus on running for a month or two. But it's true, you do less running miles per week, and the running that you do, when tri training, becomes VERY focused. For years my run training for triathlon was very simple: 1 long run on the weekend, 1 higher quality run during the week( tempo, intervals, hill repeats), and 1 other run, possibly a brick. That would often be it. However there were times, when I would just focus on running for a month at a time, say in the off-season, but once into balanced pre-season and in-season tri training, it would typically be just three runs a week. However, that's for me, an experienced runner who before coming to triathlons had run 6 -7 days week and up to 80 miles/week, for 5+ years.

As they say, your mileage may vary :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'll know more after Boston this year. Basicaly it's high mileage, two workouts a week (W, Sat) and two long runs a week (medium long on R, Long on Sun). The workouts progress gradualy with more and more LT, and MP work as the race gets closer with some hills, fartlek training, or short speed workouts (like 200, 400, 600, 400 , 200, done!) mixed in. I think he only had them do 3 weeks of V02max.

My friend, on the other hand, was hitting intense long runs, MP runs, and V02max interval sessions 4 months out from the race in addition to high mileage weeks. I just felt it was consitently too much combined with a lot of intensity for too many months.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Sorry to sound stupid but when someone mentions a 1hr Tempo or 1hr LT run is this including warm up/cool down times? E.g. does a 1hr tempo run account to a 1:20-1:30 running time or does it mean that 30-40mins will be at temp pace with the rest warm up clool down running?

STEP THREE - get race ready (maintain duration - but NOT % of time - at CP90 as STEP TWO, but aditionally build one other weekly run up to a xaimum of race mileage+1 for up to half-marathon etc, or to 2.5-3hrs/20-22miles for marathon. For a marathon, this can and should take a while.)
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fade, what is CP90?

I'm curious about your maximum long run. It's not consistent with what I've read or what I know a lot of college programs do. At the U of D (which our coach modeled a lot of his program off of Gerogetown) we did alternating 15 & 18 mile runs on Sundays. Also you can see in Running with the Buffaloes that UC was doing 2 hour long runs....all for training for a 5-6 mile race.

On the otherhand, I know an elite duathlete who never ran for longer than an hour. I was just curious if you could elaborate a bit. Thanks.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

It will probably depend on who's talking. This is where the training can get confusing because one man's tempo run is another mans marathon paced run (in fact, Daniels' definition of tempo run is Friel's zone 4. Friel's zone 3 he calls "tempo" which is similar to Daniel's MP run).

Typicaly, a Lactate Threshold run (LT) is a run of 20 to 40 minutes at around 1 hour race pace. This can be extended to 60 minutes of running but the pace gets slowed down a bit (otherwise it would be a race) to marathon pace, which *should* be 15-20 seconds slower per mile.

The LT runs (I call tempo runs) are ~88-92% of MaxHR. MP would be closer to 85% of MaxHR.

Typicaly, if one does a "1 hr tempo run" they really mean a run at about 15-20 seconds slower per mile than 1 hour race pace. This should be in addition to at least 10 minutes of warm up and 10 minutes of cool down. So, yes, the 1hr "tempo run" would encompass 1:30 of total running.

Again, it all depends on who's talking about it.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

CP90 is the best effort you can sustain for 90mins. It has become my standard 'tempo' run pace and equates pretty well to the AC sweet-spot training as just slightly below FT.

I'd reverse the question and ask: If the race distance is x, why would you bother to run anything more than x+1mile at most? What would you hope to gain from those miles that you wouldn't also gain from doing them as a separate run?

I just don't see a need for long runs greatly in excess of race distance, particularly not for the kind of people I work with (who would consider me, and my lowly 6-min miles, 'fast').

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

Experiment of one, but this has been my experience over the years with longs runs, and I experienced a modest amount of success as strong runner in triathlon competition.

1. The long run needs to be staple of your training plan year round. The actual l...........
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That's a nice summary, Fleck.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

CP90 is the best effort you can sustain for 90mins. It has become my standard 'tempo' run pace and equates pretty well to the AC sweet-spot training as just slightly below FT.

I'd reverse the question and ask: If the race distance is x, why would you bother to run anything more than x+1mile at most? What would you hope to gain from those miles that you wouldn't also gain from doing them as a separate run?

I just don't see a need for long runs greatly in excess of race distance, particularly not for the kind of people I work with (who would consider me, and my lowly 6-min miles, 'fast').
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Thanks fade. I typicaly use, then, CP45 - CP120. I try to varry it up and hit different sides of the lactate threshold.

Re - Long run, I'm going to do a little research on that. I don't have a good answer right now. What I DO know is that succesful programs use a long run of 90 - 120 minutes and that I have had a lot of success using them myself and with my athletes.

It has to do with basic aerobic development, though I can't be certain *why* one long run would be any different than just plain high weekly mileage.

I'll get back to you.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

so what was your run split at IM Germany? I'm just interested, b/c it's a pretty uncommon training plan.

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My runsplit at IM Germany was 3:17h and this was nr 30 runsplit of all in the field. It was very hot that day and i lost 7min between km 25-35 but manage to pick up the pace during the last 7k. My goal time was 3:10h and it was my 3 IM.

Is there any reference to what % of max he's running at?
Perhaps he's so efficient that even at that speed it's still a tempo run, till he goes flat out at the end.
-HWM

For my Boston training I've had to "sacrifice" some of the running I did in the Fall marathon training to incoporate tri training back in so I'm ready for Eagleman in June. So I'm doing four sessions a week. Usually this is a medium distance tempo or stride session (Tuesday), a medium-long run (Thurs.), a recovery run which I've made into a brick on Saturday's ride and my long run on Sunday.

I'm using a modified version of the 18 week "55 or less" plan from Pfitzinger-Douglas for the schedule. I used the 24 week 55 or less for my BQ in November and basically only ran the entire time. My long runs were averageing in the 7:30's and my race day performance was a 7:21 pace. I didn't follow my nutrition plan right and the last two miles were uphill, so I lost a lot of time in the last section or it would have been closer to 7:15 pace.

For the Boston training my long runs have been similar except this past weekend's 20. I was smooth and consistent and averaged 7:06 for the day with a 6:32 final mile. I've been trying to do just what is being talked about with at least picking it up for the last mile on each long run. Last night I had a 14 miler and averaged 7:16. My goal for Boston was to beat my 3:12:40 I did for the BQ and try and break 3:10. Based on my recent longer runs I'm at or below my goal pace. And my recovery doesn't seem to be having any issues.

Now, I'm not sure if it is that my strength and speed are geting better after the load of miles last year, if I just had two really good training days, or if I need to re-evaluate my goal time, but I think that running the long runs at or below my goal pace has been a positive thing. I guess the thing to see is how I perform come April and whether or not the faster mileage catches up with me and kicks my azz on race day. But I think as long as you are smart in your recovery and cross training and get enough rest and nutrition that one could handle the faster paced long runs and be okay.

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib