I do not understand why you didn't feel that specifics were pertinent to making a point about someone's specific training methodology.

It seems to me that you are underinformed about the Z's specific training per the various add-on posts which sort of contradict your original post, and the likelihood that much of it is romanticized, broad stroke lore. So it seems that you are just talking without any reasoning behind it.

If you can describe a typical week of Z's, maybe that would enlighten us.

And what exactly is your "paradox"?

I prefer to train like Clarence DeMar, by running to work with my clean undershirt tucked neatly in a package under my arm while I crank out 5:30 miles..... : )

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Hi Barry. Coaches are great people and I swear they are important. But I think there are many possible explanations for the fact that more runners are able to run faster times. IMO, it really just boils down to more runners and more runners who are motivated to train hard enough to win. You can't make someone want to win. Distance runners are self made in the sense that you can't get someone to do the work unless they want to. Great runners seek out other great runners and coaches (who mainly reign them in, keep them focused, and keep them from hurting themselves). If coaching were the primary mover then I doubt you would see as many world records being set by runners from Morocco, South America, Africa, etc.

The original post comes off sounding like some kind of rebuttal to someone who thinks Zapotek's training regimen is the way to go. Is there anyone out there that believes that? Is there something novel here?

Here is what I've seen. Mid to back pack runners saying they want to get faster and they increase their mileage and keep the same or slower pace. When one first starts out, there will be improvement doing this because many of those folks will lose weight, primarily.

But many of those runners (hopefully, not coaches) think they can turn an 8 min/mile 5K into a 7:00 pace without getting near the 7:00 pace. I have seen these folks at group speed workouts and they are not even breathing heavily . . . WTF?

The truth is, you must run a bunch under 7:00 to get there, it hurts like a MF and not many have the will to suck it up and do it. I believe the value of interval/speedwork/threshold/anaerobic/etc. training which is an integral part of the Daniels (and others) formula(s), can be directly attributed to Zapotek.

Thanks Run Jim. I was refering more to modern methods than modern coaches, per sey. However, don't discount the fact that the Africans ARE coached.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

The truth is, you must run a bunch under 7:00 to get there, it hurts like a MF and not many have the will to suck it up and do it. I believe the value of interval/speedwork/threshold/anaerobic/etc. training which is an integral part of the Daniels (and others) formula(s), can be directly attributed to Zapotek.
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Absolutely. However, one of the problems that I have witnessed is the amazing success that many newer runners see once they begin intervals that many of them shift to doing TOO MUCH interval work and begin neglecting other imporatant aspects of training (such as volume and LT work).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

If you can describe a typical week of Z's, maybe that would enlighten us.
___________________

Well, you didn't say please. Sometimes, even in the anonymous world of internet chat forums, manners are actualy important.

Maybe this thread just isn't for you.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

>>As for *my* qualifications - 20 years in the sport with relative coaching success (including 2 state champions), relative running success, read lots of books and articles, and having made and witnessed many mistakes.<<

Might we get specifics? State? Champion of what? Any education credentials? Just curious.

>> I never expect anyone to take my word for gospel - I'm just another man with an opinion and a keyboard.<<

Lots of those here.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

yeah, that is what i meant to say...that barry's post says nothing...and i agreed with skid...skid talks, i listen

dude...my post was agreeing with skid...i'm just not seeing facts, like skid didn't, in barry's original post...

i'll say please, barry...plueeeeze tell us what you think a typical z week of training was so we can learn about it and whether you have the specifics of his full training program...what was his weekly mileage? % of high v. low intensity? hills v track? how many times did he do the infamous 40x400 per week/cycle and what were the intervals? or were they 80x400? hill running? night running? army boots? hypoxic guard duty? how many 'wife-reps'? were the wife-reps to 'failure' or just until 'i'm not making you dinner if you don't put me down'?

In the African countries (Morocco, Kenya, Ethiopia), it is the generally great coaches who seek out the great runners, not the other way around. Their junior development programs are far more organized than many western countries, including here. Yes, these third world guys have an unbelievable desire from within to excel, but it is not as though guys are simply scooped off the street at age 20 and then running sub 13 on the track 5000 a few weeks later. The Moroccan junior development program formally begins around age 12 or so and is probably more organized in the coaching department than most of what we have here for any sport.

Who from South America has set world records anytime recently?

very interesting thoughts, not just in what Barry said but in how this thread developed as well. I think what Barry wrote was interesting and Scott's counter point was also interesting. I also think there was probably a bit too much reading between the lines by some looking for hidden meaning. What I got from the original post (and I might be as guilty as the next in reading too much between the lines) is that despite Z's success and talent, he achieved this despite himself. Some of his individual workouts are the things that people still talk about today and while they helped him set world records in his time and win medals, he could have probably done even better had he had the benifit of modern day coaching, no surprise there.
I normally wouldn't respond to a thread like this but what got me interested was that I just finished moving into a new house, and in that move I found the crate that had all of my old running logs. I have kept a log since I started running seriously in 1978. I sat down and spent a couple of hours looking through my logs and was amazed at some of the stuff that I did in run training 20 - 25 years ago. Now that I am more of a student of the sport and understand more about the fundementals of training and putting together a program I think that I am similar in how I described Z above, that I was moderately successful despite my training. Here are a couple of examples of some training weeks:

April 13 - 19, 1981, week of Baylor Univ Invitational

Monday: 5 miles easy, am
pm. track workout: 4 mile warm up, 20 x 400 (69 avg.) 90 sec. rest, 1 mile cool down

Tuesday: 5 mile easy, am
11 mile run, pm (2 miles easy, 8 miles @ 6:00 pace, 1 mile easy), pm

Wednesday: track workout: 4 mile warm up, 4 x 800 (2:08, 2:08, 2:09, 2:09), 4 x 200 (28 avg) 100 jog rest, 1 mile cool down, pm

Thursday: 8 mile easy run (6:30 pace)

Friday: Baylor Invitational, 5000m, race at 9pm, 2 mile warm up, 5th place in 14:40 (new PR, previous best 15:07), 1 mile cool down

Saturday: 5 mile easy run (6:30 pace)

Sunday: 15 mile run @ 6:20 pace


that was a typical training week while I was in college. here is one my first year out of collage training on my own:

March 20 - 26, 1983, week of Bayou City 10km, Houston TX

Monday: 4 miles easy, am

Tuesday: 4 miles easy, am
pm. track workout, 2 mile warm up, 12 x 400 (avg 65), 200 jog rest, 2 mile cool down

Wednesday: 4 miles easy, am
10 miles hard, 59:51, pm

Thursday: 4 miles easy, am
8 miles @ 6:15 pace, pm

Friday: 4 miles easy, am

Saturday: 2 mile warm up, 10km in 30:15, 3rd place overall, 2 mile cool down

Sunday: 18 mile run @ 6:30 pace

so when I look back, I think I probably did too much hard running and not enough easy days because the trend seemed that I would get a couple of really good weeks in that were in the 80 - 90 mile range and then I would crash and get a 40 - 50 mile week in. But the interesting thing was that a lot of my fastest races came in the middle of the back to back hard weeks, rarely after an easy week.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Thanks Mike. Looked like you were in pretty darn good shape back then. Though I haven't looked at how your entire season was put together, the big 400 sessions are definitely a classic 80s workout. Looks like you were still getting in the high mileage as well.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Thats not nessesarilly true. I went from 6:39 5k pace to a 6:11 5k pace in a little over a month without. I did not have run one mile that was under 8 mins that whole month most were closer to 9 mins.

Unless Barry has a different idea on that one.


Grant

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Grant
----------------------------------------------------
Proudly sponsored by Desoto Sports
Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter

First off, my statement was a generalization and there are always exceptions . . . Maybe the courses were different, not measured correctly, etc. My point would be this: it could be that you are far from your max potential . . . in 6 months with speed/interval training could get you to 5:45 or 5:30.

The first course was actually hillier, but they were both on my garmin so it wasn't a distance thing. I'm starting tempo/hills this month so it should be interesting at least.


Grant

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Grant
----------------------------------------------------
Proudly sponsored by Desoto Sports
Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter

This is an interesting side point, not really part of the original discussion. I also found over the last couple of years that my best performances have been at the end of the 2nd week in a 3 or 4 week build/1 week rest schedule. I have adapted my racing schedule to put raceday on the Sat/Sun of the 2nd week and have performed way better than before. Just thought it was interesting that others found the same thing...

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First off, my statement was a generalization and there are always exceptions . . . Maybe the courses were different, not measured correctly, etc. My point would be this: it could be that you are far from your max potential . . . in 6 months with speed/interval training could get you to 5:45 or 5:30.
Agreed....don't know about 5:45 in 6 months, but definitely faster.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485