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Running without speed works
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I would like to gather inputs and see if shorter distance races (5K to 10K) could be improved with little to none speed works. I could run high volume at a comfortable easy up to tempo pace but anything beyond that is daunting to me as I have a history of injury if pushed too hard and also I dislike the feeling of lactate burn.

I am not a great runner, with lots of improvement to be made. My easy run pace is around 9min/mile, tempo pace is 8min/mile. Aiming to go sub 44mins 10k and 1h44 half marathon
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Yes
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Hilly runs and hill repeats are your friend. Manage your weight,don't get injured and you should reach those times.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Bob Schul used a method where he ran lots of short intervals on grass every day. It's an interesting approach that seems to reduce injury risk. if you scroll down a little bit in the post there is a link to his book I believe he will autograph a copy which is kind of cool. If you look on YouTube there are lots of videos of his last lap winning the Tokyo Olympics it's pretty electrifying

https://mobile.twitter.com/...140058783744?lang=en
Last edited by: jroden: Dec 26, 19 4:06
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Re: Running without speed works [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. Agree with hills and hill repeats.
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Re: Running without speed works [YoMoGo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input. How long should those hill repeats be to be effective? Also, if I were to perform those Vo2Max sessions on an indoor bike training, will it 'translate' well to running performance? I usually do sets of 5-6mins at FTP, which jack my HR close to 90%, but without the impact from running.
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Re: Running without speed works [ In reply to ]
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On top of those a lot of heavy squats and foam roll improved my run, so you should try them as well.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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They key to fast running is learning to deal with lactic burn, increasing duration of that speed each week. Maybe you can over come this doing lots of tempo pace effort nearing 100 miles a week where cell volume is enlarged. But if you want faster after hitting your targets eventually speed work is necessary because there is a limit to volume


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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skyjuice wrote:
Thanks for the input. How long should those hill repeats be to be effective? Also, if I were to perform those Vo2Max sessions on an indoor bike training, will it 'translate' well to running performance? I usually do sets of 5-6mins at FTP, which jack my HR close to 90%, but without the impact from running.

Fitness is specific after a certain point. More aerobic fitness is certainly helpful, so by all means keep riding, but don't expect it to improve performance at VO2 max in running.

I've spent long periods of time running 40-60mpw and still doing VO2 work on the bike. My only quality on the run was some tempo work (as progression runs), and the occasional striders when I felt up to it (3-4x30-60sec @ somewhere between 5k-10k effort just to turn my legs over). I still had very poor ability at 5k vs. my performance at 10mi to half marathon distances. My VO2 max work on the bike did not translate to better performance at VO2 max effort in running. I get injured easily by high intensity running (the classic 300-800m intervals on the track prescribed during the sharpening phase for races under 10k). Weigh your options and decide what's best for you. I raced reasonably well on a diet of lots of easy miles, and maybe one or two progression runs per week (when running 6-7 days per week). Would I have been faster with some more structure in the last few weeks before a race? Probably, but I may have gotten hurt and never seen the starting line.

If you're building your mileage, consider running slower than you presently do. 9min/mi is quick for someone who is racing at 7:58/mi for HM. My HM race pace is probably right around 6-6:15/mi in my current fitness, and I spend the majority of my time running 8-8:30/mi (running between 40-55mpw presently). Your tempo pace could be a little quicker, maybe 7:30-7:40/mi (roughly the pace you could hold for an hour, like FTP on the bike).
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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You can gain a lot of speed by simply loading up on as much volume as life and your body can handle, at slooow speed. There's an old saying I see floating around here and it goes something like, speed work is the icing on the cake, but the cake is the volume.

I've gone from a 4 hour marathoner to a 3:00:xx marathoner by just upping my volume from 30-40 mpw to 80-90 per week, with zero speed work. I'm kinda like you. I hate speed work because of the pain and the fear that my old body may more likely break from that than from the slow volume. Can I get a bit faster if I mix in the speed work to the volume? Sure, no doubt, but for the two reasons I posted, it isn't worth it or enjoyable for *me*.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I think not too much speedwork can work for longer races - half marathon and up. Last March I got really close to a half marathon PR (1:20:30) from six years earlier (3 sec/mile off) with only doing a mid-week tempo run and some strides 2-3x a week. This was running around 40-45 mpw.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
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Re: Running without speed works [ In reply to ]
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This paper was cited in the empirical cycling podcast and I also found it to be very interesting
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14740217 (look this url up on sci-hub to get around the pay wall)

TLDR. 2 Threshold runs per week for 6 weeks. Which increased total working minutes from 30min to 60min showed increases in VO2 (threshold as a % of VO2 max remained the same) max and longer TTE at threshold on experienced runners who traditionally did only LSD.
Last edited by: Ryanppax: Dec 26, 19 12:18
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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5 and 10k are aerobic events.

Run frequently and get your volume up. You will be surprised how well your legs show up on race day.

After you cannot do any more volume or performance starts to plateau then introduce some tempo or VO2 max. Ease into it so that you aren’t introducing too much stress.

Good luck!
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Re: Running without speed works [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]
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This account is geared towards crossfitters but the graphics in this post are interesting

https://www.instagram.com/...?igshid=cf7czqoexs4a
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Re: Running without speed works [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]
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Appreciate all the inputs. To make things clear, how do you define tempo? Is that a speed I can sustain max for 1 hour?
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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skyjuice wrote:
Appreciate all the inputs. To make things clear, how do you define tempo? Is that a speed I can sustain max for 1 hour?

I personally have more of a 'range' for tempo. It can range from a bit faster than half marathon pace to close to marathon pace. I know that Jack Daniels has a specific pace for tempo based on your VDOT, but I find that based on other training and how I'm feeling, have a range works out better. Clearly, it would be a lot harder to do sustained efforts faster than HM pace compared with closer to marathon pace. Regardless, for me, it's a pace that is comfortably hard, but I can hold the pace for a while (generally 20-45 minute continuous efforts).

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with nate. The key characteristic of tempo is "comfortable". To me it's that pace that feels fast, but not hard. If I tell you to run fast for 30min but don't kill yourself , that should be tempo.

Whereas threshold is uncomfortable.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Most people greatly underestimate how fast they can get just by significantly increasing their volume & just running easy.

Using the cake analogy, in endurance sports you can never have enough cake but the overwhelming majority of people prefer to focus on developing the icing.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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We'll be doing a bike fit/wind tunnel session at some point. PM for dets
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Re: Running without speed works [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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I completely agree. I absolutely hate speed workouts. I avoid them like the plague. I try and run 40-50 miles a week every month and I've gone from 39min 10k to 36 min 10k, 1:30 half to 1:20 half, 19 min 5k to 17min 5k at 44.

Most of my runs are between 9 and 8 min miles. I'm not sure I could run 10 miles under 1:20 in a training run, but put a bib on me and everything seems to change. I'm sure I could probably get faster if I changed some things up, but i enjoy biking and swimming too. And I'm afraid of getting injured.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Going beyond what Desert Dude/Brian said - very few triathletes ever max out there endurance base with running. Many fiddle with the 5% of icing training. Here's a better approach.

If you have been running less than 3 years, try a High Frequency running approach with a blocked month of running to prove this. When I say "High Frequency", I mean days/week of running - in a perfect world with this you are running 6 - 7 days/week. I know, crazy. Hang in with me for a bit.

Take your current weekly running volume, and divide that by 6 - 7 - that will be what you run every day to start. Do this for the first week - might only be 15-20 mins of running a day. Beyond week one, extend a few of the runs to 30 and 40 minutes. Keep the minimum for the other runs at 15 - 20 mins. Don't worry so much about pace/heart-rate - when you feel like running a bit faster - go ahead. The trick is being able to run just the same, the next day, and the day after that, and the day after . . . Essentially, just run! DON'T over think it. Just run!

Do this for a month better yet two months. Find a 5k race, taper for a few days and have a go at the 5K race with a best effort you can muster. I almost guarantee if you have done this right you will record a 5K PB. This is good news. 5K run fitness is the basis and foundation of all race performance for distances beyond this!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Running without speed works [TriathlonJoe] [ In reply to ]
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TriathlonJoe wrote:
I completely agree. I absolutely hate speed workouts. I avoid them like the plague. I try and run 40-50 miles a week every month and I've gone from 39min 10k to 36 min 10k, 1:30 half to 1:20 half, 19 min 5k to 17min 5k at 44.

Most of my runs are between 9 and 8 min miles. I'm not sure I could run 10 miles under 1:20 in a training run, but put a bib on me and everything seems to change. I'm sure I could probably get faster if I changed some things up, but i enjoy biking and swimming too. And I'm afraid of getting injured.

but here is the question... what is your running back ground as youth (highschool, college)? This matters. many of the older folk can 'easily' pick it up just because they have the muscle memory


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Running without speed works [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
TriathlonJoe wrote:
I completely agree. I absolutely hate speed workouts. I avoid them like the plague. I try and run 40-50 miles a week every month and I've gone from 39min 10k to 36 min 10k, 1:30 half to 1:20 half, 19 min 5k to 17min 5k at 44.

Most of my runs are between 9 and 8 min miles. I'm not sure I could run 10 miles under 1:20 in a training run, but put a bib on me and everything seems to change. I'm sure I could probably get faster if I changed some things up, but i enjoy biking and swimming too. And I'm afraid of getting injured.


but here is the question... what is your running back ground as youth (highschool, college)? This matters. many of the older folk can 'easily' pick it up just because they have the muscle memory

Absolutely it matters. I don't think we're saying anyone can run those times on the same steady mileage. The point is that it gets you a long way and the faster runs carry a higher injury risk. If you can reasonably do more steady stuff then that is the better, safer approach and it will push you further up that curve. What you want to do is avoid that injury cycle where you struggle up the curve then fall back. You might as well see how far steady gets you before it plateaus (everything plateaus) because you will be stronger anyway and handle the faster stuff better if you end up going that way. But how far it takes you might surprise you if you are patient.
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Re: Running without speed works [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]
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I have no run back ground. started late 20s. volume cake work took me to best of mid 18s on the 5k. Seems I acquired more injuries this way as form started to break down into a jogger. To break 18, I had to drop volume and focus on icing with a shi ton of mental form work - thinking on how to take each next step instead of grinding. Better when you are young when the perfect muscle motor form is ingrained, thanks to racing super short distance (800m and less)


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Running without speed works [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be darn happy to break 20min for a 5K race just by doing low-intensity work. For those doing high volume low intensity runs, what is your heart rate like? Mine is around 135bpm, but it wil eventually go up as I run further (the hot and humid weather here in Southeast Asia doesnt help on that).
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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As a baseline, in decent conditions (65f/18c)... I cap at 77% mhr or 85% LTHR for easy running. I'll let that drift upwards as it get warmer / humid. When I say "cap", I mean I try to end my runs there. So, I may need to spend the bulk of the run below that... Probably starting 5-8 bpm low after warming up.
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