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Running technique
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after all, triathlon has a bit of running in it too :-)

When looking at triathletes vs runners, triathletes tend to have a much shorter push off, that is the moment where the rear foot pushes off the ground is much further back for runners than triathletes.
though much of the propulsion forward comes from this push off far behind.
I have been working on this quite a bit, (2.5 months or thereabout), though it's still feel a bit awkward at times and is not yet sustainable over long periods of time (say more than 70-80 minutes), and definitely not over the a full IM run.

keys seem to be:
-leaning a bit forward (pretty much a la kenyan)
-arm opposite of leg pushing off should swing back

still I feel something is missing. Maybe lack of strength in the calves. I guess in running, it's more of a plyometric-like contraction vs isometric (med. guys stop me if I am way off...) or something like that...essentially, not the same types of contractions.

so, basically, I'd like feedback on what is missing, and what kind of drills to help push off...
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firstly triathletes are slowat running period [ In reply to ]
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if you want to compare them to runners, even LVL's to 2.36 by running standards is slow, slow, slow...........

That said if you want to continue with the comparison, WR pace for the marathon is about 4.50, for the 10k about 4.12 pace (very roughly and that is on the fast side, I used 26.5 for the WR 10k as I dont know what it is off the top of my head.

In an Oly 10k they come close to marathon WR pace, in an IM, no where near. The difference in marathon running styles or 10k styles and tri running? Leg drive and push off and the forward speed they are moving over their legs.........

It might look like they land further back than triathletes, but that is not really the case, it simply appears that way because they are moving 40 seconds a mile faster and a minute and a half a mile faster than LVL's record so their legs are falling the same way a triathletes are, they just happen to be moving over them faster.

Its like in swimming where you pick a spot on the floor of the pool and try to pull your self past it with a stroke, well a slower persons not able to do it while a faster person moves much further with that same single stroke.

It is an illusion created by the pace they are moving at, put a 7 minute mile runner next to a 4.50 and watch them run at the same cadence, the 4.50 will look like his leg is landing behind his butt, he'll drive through and repeat.

The 7 minute miler will look like he landed under his butt.

Slow the film down and you'll see both landed in the same spot it's just that one body moved past that spot a lot faster than the other.

Evidence of this can clearly be seen in Yessis's book Explosive Running that has slowed down frame by frame photo's of elite runners.......
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Re: firstly triathletes are slowat running period [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I am not talking specifically about running off the bike. if you improve your running, provided you don't lose tons on the bike, you will run faster/more efficiently off the bike.
however, maybe you are right and the pace makes it look like there is a push off further back. anyway in my case, (and I'd say probably the case for triathletes that run more on power, than fleet feeted dudes) my push off tends to be a bit too short, even at 5'/mi it looks short, so the aim is to be smoother, more efficient.
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Plyometrics and Yessis [ In reply to ]
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check out Yessis and the drills.

It really is an optical illusion I think, you watch the elite "runners" and slow down the video of them and you'll see it.
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Re: Plyometrics and Yessis [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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actually when looking at elite you also see something pretty interesting. if you look at London, and the running styles of HG, PT, KK, HG is clearly a forefoot runner, PT is quite neutral and KK and is heel striker. to be a heel striker without overstriding you really need to lean forward. so that was quite interesting, re. Pose method etc... besides there is a wrong conception that the pose method is about forefoot running, whereas when you read it it is actually about shortening the pendulum (heel hits the butt and the bend leg comes back this way, less loss of energy).
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Also notice that HGS ran and had [ In reply to ]
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serious problems in the marathon. There was a lot of speculation going in that he would have a really hard time with the distance, not the endurance but the pounding everyone knew he was going to take and that was what caused his problems.

Just broke out the video as you brought it up, Radcliffe, pronator, mid foot striker I think.

Also she is being given male pacers for London this year to set the new WR, she is looking for guys to run 2.15............she rocks.

I will check out KK at the next commercial break, Tergats problem was he never had the kick to even come close to KK. KK has a kick no one can match, a 4.35 and change 24th mile in Chicago, similar kick in London, Tergat simply does not have the speed.

Tergat is really unfortunate in that he came along and got stuck with KK in the marathon and HGS in everything else.

Having said that if HGS figure it out by October, he could potentially have held every distance record from the 2 mile indoor to the marathon at one time..........
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Re: Also notice that HGS ran and had [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. HG is probably the only one with a kick stronger than KK, even though he will have to find it after 25mi instead of finding it after 5.8mi
the other thing for Gebre is that KK and Tergat were smart enough to let him lead the whole way once the pacers were done (which was way earlier than planned!!) and HG spent a great deal of time at the front, KK being smart enough to know that you'd better not get with HG too close to the finish line if he isn't tired...

as for Paula...I don't know what to say...not so long ago, my marathon PR was decent in the elite women, now it just sucks, I lose 2km on Paula...I need longer socks!
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IAAF and the IOC have said that if Paula requests [ In reply to ]
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they will change the dates of the 10k and the marathon in Athens so that she can run both.

Her times also suggest that she could actually be the fastest female ever from the mile to the marathon, be interesting to see if that appeals to her as a challenge.
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Re: IAAF and the IOC have said that if Paula requests [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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However, what it suggests is: the kenyans, north africans, ethiopians males are faster than the white dudes because, they train harder!
and Paula is faster than all the females because she trains harder.
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I dont think there is any doubt that [ In reply to ]
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in the states until the last couple of years distance running had become dismal.

It is turning around because guy's like Culpepper, Herald, Brown are putting in the miles......

They are training harder than their predecessors and the results are starting to speak for them selves.

I dont think there is any doubt that it appears that the Kenyans and Ethiopians have an advantage, simply look at the numbers, Paula is a statistical anomaly, a genetic freak who busts her ass.

Theres no doubt that there are great white runners, Ryan, Shorter, Cram, Ovett, Coe, I cant remember the Finn, but these guy's really are anomalies when you look at the number of white guy's in relation to the number of Africans.......

That said the Japanese seem to be able to put out as many fast runners as the Africans so maybe it simply is hard work..........and the advantage that the Africans appear to have is more a case of throwing thousands of bodies at the problem to find the HGS or Tergat.
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Re: I dont think there is any doubt that [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I really think it is more cultural. when half the country runs, you are more likely to find all the good runners.
In Australia, they have tons of swimmers, because they have tons of pools and everyone swims.
In portugal and italy, running tends to be quite popular and they have some seriously good runners. I am sure there would be many more if the sport was more popular there.
there is a french dude running low 2h08' now but he is young and working hard (Benoit Z) with a lot of top end speed from the 10km.

I think it is hard work + having a large pool

as for the finn, it's Lasse Viren.
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Thats the Finn, Lake Biwa marathon new collegiate [ In reply to ]
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marathon record of 2.08.

I dont think you can nail it down to one thing, culture, location etc etc but I do think there are some fundamentals you need once you get close to the top and they are in no particular order

Talent

Altitude

Work Ethic

After that it really depends on those how far you can go.....
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Re: Thats the Finn, Lake Biwa marathon new collegiate [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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indeed...does not matter how you get there...look in tri, Hellriegel always says he has not a lot of talent (compared to others) and so trains his butt off...

Hellriegel: Talent 5/10, Altitude: no, Work ethic:20/10 (the paula radcliffe of tri)

LVL: altitude:? work ethic: can't say but surely high, talent: 20/10...both won kona.
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ok, who are they kidding Hellriegel lacks talent [ In reply to ]
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they way Paul Tergat lacks talent.......at the level he's at he has an innate talent that allowed him to get there. I accept some people are more gifted than others but the level of talent it takes to get to their level is very high..........

Watching London and goddam if Paula is not the ugliest runner, style wise out there, she looks in pain from mile one..........head bobbing, mid foot strike, going up and down, got some sort of gimpy thing going on with her right arm........mile 11 in 5.17........
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Re: Running technique [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I find that keeping interval training sessions short (ie. 200s and 400s and never longer than 800s) will force you to run faster and develop your stride and push off to be more like a "runner". As a runner who is now a triathlete, I feel that too many triathletes just go to the track and run repeat miles at pace which makes them strong but not fast. That said, if you try to run like a runner off the bike in an ironman you're done. If you look at the fast ironman runners, they all have low knee lift and a good, fast shuffle. Lori Bowden has an awesome shuffle which gets her around 3 hours all the time. This is definitely not fast running but she is so efficient at shuffling that she doesn't bonk like the others.
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US Distance Runners [ In reply to ]
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Don't forget that KK is also a US runner - not US born, but still a US runner. I agree that there is a general lack of visibility for US runners, however I also agree that there are many steps being taken to address that. Being from MN, I know a couple of people on the Team USA MN and they are all out there really putting in the miles but also working to raise the visibility of running in the area. Katie McGregor is a coordinator for one of the group runs I normally run with and she also happens to be a really fast female runner that is starting to take some podiums in races around the US (she was the female winner of the Twin Cities 10 mile last year). I think that the focus of top US runners isn't just to put themselves at the top, but to bring along some company and be a leader in the running community.

As for technique - I guess I'm from the camp that says if it works for you then go for it. I also know that my strides differ depending on the distance - for short races I usually stride a lot more (slower cadence) to cover more ground and gain momentum - for longer races I'll quicken my cadence to conserve energy. So far this strategy works for me, but as a comparison I'm also not that fast. Current 1mile time is 6:20, current 5k is 23:00 - so I'm no podium threat at the moment being that I'm 24yrs old. I have gotten faster and faster with more training, and expect my mile times to drop to under 6 and my 5k to drop under 20 by the end of the summer - I just have to keep putting in the mileage after I finish my marathon in June.

Please feel free to suggest favorite work-outs, etc. in training for more running speed both in triathlon and out.
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Re: ok, who are they kidding Hellriegel lacks talent [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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   Well, in response to another thread, we can't let you two have all the fun here. But you do have a serious digression going on here. Comparing elite triathletes' running form to elite runners doesn't get us anywhere. Its almost an apples and oranges sort of thing. Lots of factors to consider here, but we could start with the average weight of world class marathoners and IM distance triathletes. Marathoners 115-130, IMers 140-160. That in itself dictates ultimate speed at the marathon distance. Sure there are anomolies, but the general model fits these ranges. Add the body mass necessary to swim strong and bike strong to the marathoners, and you'd be up in the 140s range quickly. No more 2:0something marathons. MAYBE 2:1somethings, but definitely slower. Then lets take away their 140 mile running weeks and add about 3-400 miles of cycling. Slower still. Probably 2:2something, IF they focused back on running for a while. The last major factor I'd consider is that IMers run on pre-fatigued muscles. That dictates a shuffle style of running over the classic marathoner's swift, light strides. You have to train running muscular endurance to survive in the IM game. When your target split is in the 2:40-2:55 range, you don't need top end speed. One of you is going to say "if they did more speed, they'd be faster." Not true. They'd just run out of legs before they reached 26.2. 2:36 may be slow for a straight marathon, but after 2.4 and 112, it is serious speed.

I'm not personally at the speed you guys are. My marathon PB is 2:54. My 10ks are 33/34 and 35/36 in an Oly tri. But I have no doubt that if I quit this tri stuff and focused on running only, keeping the same hours of training, my marathon would be down around 2:30 and 10k would approach 30/31. My form would revert to the runner's stride I had in high-school instead of a strong shuffle.

All that said, I just don't think there is a lot to gain by comparing triathlete's running to elite runners. I would love to run like a 160lb KK or Tergat. But I think doing so would compromise my triathlon/duathlon performance. Hell, I'd love to TT like Botero, Ullrich, or Lance, but I'd ball up in a heap of cramping muscles 200m into the run.
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Re: ok, who are they kidding Hellriegel lacks talent [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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agree.

that said re. your perf. 33-34 10km suggests a faster than 2.54 marathon....just a thought that your training was maybe not optimized for a marathon.
I'd say a 33-34 would probably give a 1h17 half or thereabout and a 2h45' marathon.
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KK is a US runner the same way Zola Bud was [ In reply to ]
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a British runner.............the biggest thing with KK is that he has followed the cash flow, not the major championships, remember he took citizenship before a World Championship and went on to drop out........

A 34 min 10k is worth a sub 2.40 marathon..........and I am no where near that fast......for the record.
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Re: KK is a US runner the same way Zola Bud was [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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a 30/31 10K also equates to a much faster marathon than 2:30.

Look at the U.S. Olympic Trials qualifiers (sub 2:22) and their 10K times are all under 31:00 (with many in the 30s).
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Yeah, but you'd still get beaten by a girl :) [ In reply to ]
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:)
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Re: ok, who are they kidding Hellriegel lacks talent [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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 Ding, ding. You are correct in your deductions. I ran the marathon PB back when I was doing 7-8 marathons a year, but mostly prepping for 3 consecutive IM years. That was almost six years ago now. After my last IM in '97, my life has forced me to focus on shorter, speedier stuff. My fast 10ks were run in the last 3-4 years. If I focused on running, and especially marathons, I would indeed be quite a bit faster. But I'm back in the IM hunt now. I told my coach I want to go after a marathon PB after GFT this year. I'd also like to run Boston next year. Its about the only hole in my U.S. major marathon hit list.
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Re: KK is a US runner the same way Zola Bud was [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Not true at all. When Khanouchi came to the US he got a job washing dishes in a restaurant in Brooklyn. He set out to prove that he had more talent than the Moroccans thought he did, and he succeeded. All the training and hard work he did, he did here.

He is an American runner.
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Re: firstly triathletes are slowat running period [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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if you want to compare them to runners, even LVL's to 2.36 by running standards is slow, slow, slow...........
What do you guys think LVL could run in an open marathon?(if he trained for a few months for one). 2:15? 2:20? I know Ryan Bolton dropped 23 minutes in his stand alone marathon from his IM pr(2:26 from 2:49) on a packed dirt course. For that matter, what do you guys think Lori could run in an open marathon?
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Re: firstly triathletes are slowat running period [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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First, it would take more than a "few months" to build elite marathon speed and fitness. Second, I'd say with a true dedicated effort, he'd be in the 2:15-2:25 region easily on a good course. He's a little big to go much faster than that. Racking my brain, I think Eyestone was about the biggest guy I've ever seen who had any real claim to world class sub 2:10. Not sure though. But LVL is in about the same boat, and without 7-8 years of dedicated running only, sub 2:15 just isn't realistic.

I think Lori would be a very good women's marathoner, but not anywhere near the Radcliffe or Ndereba. Maybe low 2:30s.
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