Running Mechanics discussion

Oct 4, 18 18:05

Post #1 of 30 (4092 views)

I started into running again with too much time to think...

Last fall I was watching this run course which centered around gravity, falling forward and using foot pick-up and return to build the running motion. It made people that were doing this look a bit strange.

Ultimately I disagree with the approach.

IMO running is simply the ability to use your forefoot to grip the surface and drive backward, creating propulsion. Not unlike swimming. Like a hand grabbing the ground and moving the torso forward. With this interpretation, lots of things fall into place:

1. Toe strike
2. Stride rate
3. Efficiency
4. Development of run specific muscle groups and ROM
5. Minimal/barefoot shoes & proper use of
6. Injury reduction

So the idea of a gravity-fed runner with big sole, heel striking pile-driving run stride with massive shock load - Yes certainly a way to move & quickly but ultimately it's a destructive course.

The above also explains why me, quads and calves push beast from skating, skiing and cycling can't run worth beans. I didn't have the lower leg stability nor the specific leg drive to execute.

Working in the gym this summer I have improved my lower leg stability which is awesome but clearly need to develop that back chain (glutes, hamstrings etc) to improve my catch and pull.

We talk about that all day long in swimming but I've never seen it discussed wrt to running. What is going on?

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 4, 18 20:41

Post #2 of 30 (4002 views)

I've often thought about this - swimming is so technique focussed, but it is largely dismissed in running. Good gait, stance and stride CAN be taught, but is often completely discarded. Not sure why - maybe people are too busy deliberating about tyre width, but the run is where the money is in Triathlon.

There are a couple of good physios in town here doing gait analysis on a treadmill - a mate has gone through a year of rework and has found it very beneficial, resulting in increased efficiency, but more importantly, a significant reduction in minor injuries and niggles.

Last edited by: oakie: Oct 4, 18 21:50

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 4, 18 22:16

Post #3 of 30 (3966 views)

No barefoot shoes aren't going to make you run better or prevent injuries, if they would we would see top runners use them. And there is no consensus regarding toe strike, cadence, it's simply too variable.
Running is simple, just run a lot, sometimes fast, most times slow, do a lot of strides on grass and you will get faster. Stop trying to complicate things.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 5, 18 17:31

Post #4 of 30 (3789 views)

SharkFM wrote:

I started into running again with too much time to think...

Last fall I was watching this run course which centered around gravity, falling forward and using foot pick-up and return to build the running motion. It made people that were doing this look a bit strange.

Ultimately I disagree with the approach.

IMO running is simply the ability to use your forefoot to grip the surface and drive backward, creating propulsion. Not unlike swimming. Like a hand grabbing the ground and moving the torso forward. With this interpretation, lots of things fall into place:

1. Toe strike
2. Stride rate
3. Efficiency
4. Development of run specific muscle groups and ROM
5. Minimal/barefoot shoes & proper use of
6. Injury reduction

So the idea of a gravity-fed runner with big sole, heel striking pile-driving run stride with massive shock load - Yes certainly a way to move & quickly but ultimately it's a destructive course.

The above also explains why me, quads and calves push beast from skating, skiing and cycling can't run worth beans. I didn't have the lower leg stability nor the specific leg drive to execute.

Working in the gym this summer I have improved my lower leg stability which is awesome but clearly need to develop that back chain (glutes, hamstrings etc) to improve my catch and pull.

We talk about that all day long in swimming but I've never seen it discussed wrt to running. What is going on?

The consensus of most clinicians/researches who specialize in running mechanics includes the following.

1) aim to land with the foot close to to your COM (center of mass)

2) Avoid "stomping" the ground (this is more for reducing rate of loading which is often implicated in stress reactions/fractures)

3) There is no "perfect" foot contact position. The best runners in the world have some variety in rear-foot or mid-foot strike.

Look up the work of Jay Dicharry, Irene Davis or Brian Heiderschiet (spelling may be wrong). They are top of the field in running mechanics and injury prevention. Jay Dicharry's book "Running Rewired" I feel, as a PT who treats runners for a living, is the bible when it comes to running mechanics. Give it a read.

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net

Last edited by: PTinAZ: Oct 5, 18 17:34

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 5, 18 17:46

Post #5 of 30 (3766 views)

"Last fall I was watching this run course which centered around gravity, falling forward and using foot pick-up and return to build the running motion. It made people that were doing this look a bit strange. "

This sounds very much like pose running.

"So the idea of a gravity-fed runner with big sole, heel striking pile-driving run stride with massive shock load - Yes certainly a way to move & quickly but ultimately it's a destructive course. "

This is not the principle of gravity-fed runner. I could not call falling on you feet while they are under you pile-driving or destructive. Yes, a person can land on their heel but they are not vaulting over them. Most people that think they are mid-foot striking are in fact heel striking but are doing so with their feet underneath them.

Perhaps a link to the video you watch could answer some questions. It could be a bad example or even a completely incorrect way to run.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Oct 5, 18 21:42

Post #6 of 30 (3664 views)

Yes it was Pose running. And IMO Pose is an incorrect diversion.

What I am stating above is about definition, creating simplicity and understanding of the root or functional movement pattern.

Why do this? It's to direct training and devise regimens that deliver most improvement.

Also for analysis, to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see things in a different way.

Here are some changes that I have made:
1. I have changed the way I ride my bike, concentrating on pulling back and up, and avoiding pushing the pedals (went back to clips vs flat pedals on my commuter)
2. Work daily on toe plant/backward leg drive (eg hills) hamstrings, glutes and planks (on heels)
3. Drills that focus on these movements.
4. Work to move away from the overloaded quad-fest

A runner who has a weak back-of-leg chain & no drive will run like an elephant, knees and body bent, head tilted back in a world of hurt, zapping up more energy than a black hole in deep space.

I should know it :)

Lionel kinda runs like a bit like that too. Canadian style.

PS: will check out the info thks

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 8:34

Post #7 of 30 (3540 views)

I see Pose running as a very low energy running style. Falling on your feet by leaning forward only requires you to lift your legs with your hamstrings while gravity swings it forward to a point where you set your foot on the ground right under you.

Having no push off means a person's speed will be limited but a newer runner will likely only be running up to 9 min/mile anyway. Once they learn to plant their feet under them instead of over-striding, they will likely develop a toe push-off.

Once the pose is learned the person can then learn to drive their knees forward which will in turn develop a toe push. There are refinements with arm swing as well, I am not good at demonstrating or describing them as I have my own running deficiencies.

To me, Pose is the beginning of the run learning process. It is not the final technique.

I'd certainly like to view the video you watched. It's entirely possible they explain it differently than the way it was shown to me.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 9:02

Post #8 of 30 (3515 views)

SharkFM wrote:

I started into running again with too much time to think...

Last fall I was watching this run course which centered around gravity, falling forward and using foot pick-up and return to build the running motion. It made people that were doing this look a bit strange.

Ultimately I disagree with the approach.

IMO running is simply the ability to use your forefoot to grip the surface and drive backward, creating propulsion. Not unlike swimming. Like a hand grabbing the ground and moving the torso forward. With this interpretation, lots of things fall into place:

1. Toe strike
2. Stride rate
3. Efficiency
4. Development of run specific muscle groups and ROM
5. Minimal/barefoot shoes & proper use of
6. Injury reduction

So the idea of a gravity-fed runner with big sole, heel striking pile-driving run stride with massive shock load - Yes certainly a way to move & quickly but ultimately it's a destructive course.

The above also explains why me, quads and calves push beast from skating, skiing and cycling can't run worth beans. I didn't have the lower leg stability nor the specific leg drive to execute.

Working in the gym this summer I have improved my lower leg stability which is awesome but clearly need to develop that back chain (glutes, hamstrings etc) to improve my catch and pull.

We talk about that all day long in swimming but I've never seen it discussed wrt to running. What is going on?

I don't see why having beefier quads would be a limiter. I have always had relatively big quads, even before I started cycling, and I have pretty good run form with very high cadence. Guys with totally massive quads and toothpick legs have both kicked my ass, it's individual specific.

My efficiency has always been best when I have been running a ton of miles. Whenever I have tried to consciously change my running form I have gotten injured. I think a lot of having good run form is just lifetime miles and your body figuring it out over years and years of repetition.

edit: That said, I do have comparatively weak hamstrings and they are the first to go if I overdo it, but I don't think they are thrashing my form.

Last edited by: ntc: Oct 6, 18 9:04

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 9:08

Post #9 of 30 (3506 views)

<opens popcorn>

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 9:16

Post #10 of 30 (3483 views)

Calling Tri Mechanics. Come in Tri Mechanics.......

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 9:22

Post #11 of 30 (3475 views)

Somehow it's never the fast people who worry about these kind of things ;)

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 10:15

Post #12 of 30 (3438 views)

SharkFM wrote:

I started into running again with too much time to think...

Last fall I was watching this run course which centered around gravity, falling forward and using foot pick-up and return to build the running motion. It made people that were doing this look a bit strange.

Ultimately I disagree with the approach.

IMO running is simply the ability to use your forefoot to grip the surface and drive backward, creating propulsion. Not unlike swimming. Like a hand grabbing the ground and moving the torso forward. With this interpretation, lots of things fall into place:

1. Toe strike
2. Stride rate
3. Efficiency
4. Development of run specific muscle groups and ROM
5. Minimal/barefoot shoes & proper use of
6. Injury reduction

So the idea of a gravity-fed runner with big sole, heel striking pile-driving run stride with massive shock load - Yes certainly a way to move & quickly but ultimately it's a destructive course.

The above also explains why me, quads and calves push beast from skating, skiing and cycling can't run worth beans. I didn't have the lower leg stability nor the specific leg drive to execute.

Working in the gym this summer I have improved my lower leg stability which is awesome but clearly need to develop that back chain (glutes, hamstrings etc) to improve my catch and pull.

We talk about that all day long in swimming but I've never seen it discussed wrt to running. What is going on?

You’re over thinking it. Just run baby.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [oakie] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 10:16

Post #13 of 30 (3432 views)

oakie wrote:

I've often thought about this - swimming is so technique focussed, but it is largely dismissed in running. Good gait, stance and stride CAN be taught, but is often completely discarded. Not sure why - maybe people are too busy deliberating about tyre width, but the run is where the money is in Triathlon.

There are a couple of good physios in town here doing gait analysis on a treadmill - a mate has gone through a year of rework and has found it very beneficial, resulting in increased efficiency, but more importantly, a significant reduction in minor injuries and niggles.

Faster?

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 12:54

Post #14 of 30 (3348 views)

marklemcd wrote:

oakie wrote:

I've often thought about this - swimming is so technique focussed, but it is largely dismissed in running. Good gait, stance and stride CAN be taught, but is often completely discarded. Not sure why - maybe people are too busy deliberating about tyre width, but the run is where the money is in Triathlon.

There are a couple of good physios in town here doing gait analysis on a treadmill - a mate has gone through a year of rework and has found it very beneficial, resulting in increased efficiency, but more importantly, a significant reduction in minor injuries and niggles.

Faster?

For sure if you gain good knowledge and expertise it will help. .... but first a couple of my rules of Triathlon :
1. There is always somebody faster than you, and always somebody slower
2. You are only as good as your last race
3. A slower athlete is probably working as much or harder than you.

eg. I ran a 26 min 5K off a "blistering" bike in my very first race. It was bar none, the hardest 5K - no... make that the hardest anything I've ever done, in my life. OMG
I am now feeling lazy in comparison & posting better times with much less hurt, due to better balanced muscle groups and training of course.

July/Aug of single leg stability and functional (gym) training has made my running feel better (like wow) and I'm looking to build on that.
I had a quick look at Jay Dicharry Running Rewired and my trainer has me doing the same or similar drills on there.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 14:39

Post #15 of 30 (3289 views)

So I've started recording run power...but obviously no idea how to use that metric. I'm using the Garmin run power app and the HRM tri to provide run dynamics.

So far I'm noticing L 52 R 48% for ground contact time percentage.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 14:56

Post #16 of 30 (3273 views)

SharkFM wrote:

marklemcd wrote:

oakie wrote:

I've often thought about this - swimming is so technique focussed, but it is largely dismissed in running. Good gait, stance and stride CAN be taught, but is often completely discarded. Not sure why - maybe people are too busy deliberating about tyre width, but the run is where the money is in Triathlon.

There are a couple of good physios in town here doing gait analysis on a treadmill - a mate has gone through a year of rework and has found it very beneficial, resulting in increased efficiency, but more importantly, a significant reduction in minor injuries and niggles.

Faster?

For sure if you gain good knowledge and expertise it will help. .... but first a couple of my rules of Triathlon :
1. There is always somebody faster than you, and always somebody slower
2. You are only as good as your last race
3. A slower athlete is probably working as much or harder than you.

eg. I ran a 26 min 5K off a "blistering" bike in my very first race. It was bar none, the hardest 5K - no... make that the hardest anything I've ever done, in my life. OMG
I am now feeling lazy in comparison & posting better times with much less hurt, due to better balanced muscle groups and training of course.

July/Aug of single leg stability and functional (gym) training has made my running feel better (like wow) and I'm looking to build on that.
I had a quick look at Jay Dicharry Running Rewired and my trainer has me doing the same or similar drills on there.

I don’t understand this one

A slower athlete is probably working as much or harder than you.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 15:01

Post #17 of 30 (3264 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

<opens popcorn>

No shit,

Think the debate on cycling and swimming technique and efficiency has been going on for a while?

Think about running, probably been talking about this for 2000 years or more.

Pose is essentially a business model, same with a lot of others like TI or USRPT in swimming and whatever that new thing in sufferfest is that relates to FTP.

I wish Steve Magness was on here, he has some really good stuff on his website.

Maurice

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 16:15

Post #18 of 30 (3210 views)

You’re doing it all wrong, man. Scrap your theories and start from scratch. Truly from scratch, going back to when creatures first came out of the sea and began moving on land.

Highly recommend checking out Serge Gracovetsky’s work.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 17:21

Post #19 of 30 (3176 views)

This is something that the people who say "just run!" simply don't get. At a certain point, just running more (or harder, or longer, or faster) isn't worth a hill of beans if your form is so bad that you're hurting yourself doing it.

I spent last winter on a run focus, with the goal of completing a spring marathon as a primer for IMLP. Life was good, I was running my miles, I was getting the volume in, when I started to get pain at the 16-18 mile mark. Every time. I showed up for my marathon and ended up pulling the plug at the halfway point, in screaming agony. That was the push that got me to a PT. Turns out, my quads are trying to do everything for me. Except stabilisation - I stabilise through my ankles. I've spent most of this year doing exercises to strengthen and activate my glutes, to increase flexibility and stop rotation through my hips, to build non-damaging running form from the ground up.

If you have naturally good mechanics, you can get away with a lot. If you don't... You'll be lucky right up until the point that you're not anymore.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 20:18

Post #20 of 30 (3111 views)

UK2ME wrote:

This is something that the people who say "just run!" simply don't get. At a certain point, just running more (or harder, or longer, or faster) isn't worth a hill of beans if your form is so bad that you're hurting yourself doing it.

I spent last winter on a run focus, with the goal of completing a spring marathon as a primer for IMLP. Life was good, I was running my miles, I was getting the volume in, when I started to get pain at the 16-18 mile mark. Every time. I showed up for my marathon and ended up pulling the plug at the halfway point, in screaming agony. That was the push that got me to a PT. Turns out, my quads are trying to do everything for me. Except stabilisation - I stabilise through my ankles. I've spent most of this year doing exercises to strengthen and activate my glutes, to increase flexibility and stop rotation through my hips, to build non-damaging running form from the ground up.

If you have naturally good mechanics, you can get away with a lot. If you don't... You'll be lucky right up until the point that you're not anymore.

How much has your PR, strength, and flexibility work improved your race times and durability / ability to put in mileage? Genuinely curious.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 20:39

Post #21 of 30 (3099 views)

ntc wrote:

How much has your PR, strength, and flexibility work improved your race times and durability / ability to put in mileage? Genuinely curious.

It's hard to say, objectively. After my aborted marathon I took a DNF at Chatty 70.3 on the bike course and deferred IMLP to 2019. So I completely changed my season focus and took out any kind of distance work this year.

Really, what a whole bunch of PT, strength, flexibility work and rolling has done is allowed me to be able to run at all. I completed the sprint/oly double at Rev3 Williamsburg, with a 30 minute oly PR over the year before, without pain. (It's not as impressive as it sounds... I'm slow to start with, just a little less slow this year.) I've been able to run the 10k at the end of an oly without my knees and hips and pelvis and ankles hurting.

When I'm just running, I am holding a pace that's about 10% faster for the same effort level, which I can only attribute to more efficient mechanics. Or, at least... I was. There's been a bit of life happening (job, school, got married, all the usual) so I'm not running as much as I should be. I'm also not doing as much PT as I should be, and I'm feeling that, too. I'm about to start the serious work towards IMLP 2019, and I sincerely believe that attention to my form will be critical to me getting to the start line.

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 6, 18 21:35

Post #22 of 30 (3067 views)

IMO there is no single camp that is right for you...there is only what is right for you. The big ranger was/is a fan of variety in terms of biomechanics and so there goes the blanket rules for conformity/change.

The exception is when injuries occurs for other than training error reasons or if one has reach their ceiling for injury/performance threshold and wants to push higher, although changes here would also be highly subjective and not based in what is largely agenda driven theories.

Cheers!

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 18 17:39

Post #23 of 30 (2722 views)

UK2ME wrote:

ntc wrote:

How much has your PR, strength, and flexibility work improved your race times and durability / ability to put in mileage? Genuinely curious.

It's hard to say, objectively. After my aborted marathon I took a DNF at Chatty 70.3 on the bike course and deferred IMLP to 2019. So I completely changed my season focus and took out any kind of distance work this year.

Really, what a whole bunch of PT, strength, flexibility work and rolling has done is allowed me to be able to run at all.

We start our lives, for the most part, being able to run out of the gate. It's the activity and other issues that cause imbalances to wreak havoc. thanks for sharing your experience.

5 years ago it was intense pain in my quads, almost like they were screaming for blood supply. That was followed by lower leg issues and injuries. I've worked through to what I would consider a decent starting point.

Running (and more-so walking) is the most balanced thing we do. The foot landing does use the quads and lower leg strength. From there the glutes, hamstrings take over to propel forward. It should be close to 50/50 front/back and upper/lower.

I was running with my son after turkey dinner. He's 15 years old. Has good top speed I was a couple of km/h slower than him. Just getting back into it but it would be hard for me to match his turnover, especially when I am overbiking :(.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 18 17:51

Post #24 of 30 (2709 views)

What often gets confused in the discussion is equating running biomechanics to running "form". They aren't the same thing.

2 runners with similar ability likely will have different "form"...one isn't necessarily wrong or right. Research shows us this. Go watch a race and you'll see it too.

Both, however, require appropriate biomechanics to be able to run long, often, fast, slow, uphill, downhill.

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net

Re: Running Mechanics discussion [PTinAZ] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 18 19:28

Post #25 of 30 (2651 views)

PTinAZ wrote:

What often gets confused in the discussion is equating running biomechanics to running "form". They aren't the same thing.

2 runners with similar ability likely will have different "form"...one isn't necessarily wrong or right. Research shows us this. Go watch a race and you'll see it too.

Both, however, require appropriate biomechanics to be able to run long, often, fast, slow, uphill, downhill.

Would you mind explaining that a little more, for the uninitiated like me?

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