My own experience with Saucony Endorphin Speeds and vaporfly Next%, while not very scientific, is opposite.

After several training runs on the same courses, I am able to do the same speed on the vapors with less perceived effort and -WAY- less overall soreness afterwards (long runs).

If comparing vapor vs saucony speed not surprising. Endorphine pro is a different shoe, and has a Carbon plate. Speed does not.

Fair enough, but I thought it was generally agreed that the carbon plate is not what makes the difference in these newer shoes, rather its the type of foam. I believe the 'speed' has the same foam as the 'pro'.

Yes, both Speed and Pro have same foam as Next : soft Pebax, for the 3 shoes.

While I can only speak based on my own experience, I feel The Carbon plate is what makes the difference, especially in post-run soreness.

The foam too, yea, and I wouldnt know the three shoes had The same foam. Thats probably Also a big factor, especially for The loooong runs. but I kinda think of The speed as sauconys equivalent for Nikes fly 3 og some of their other fast training shoes (fly 3 Also has a plate)

I can see that. Stability wise endorphin pros are nice. Having both of the shoes I just feel way more beat up after using the endorphin pros than the next%. Id say even though they are both PEBAX the cushioning is on another level with the next% compared to the endorphin pros IMO.

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/

I *feel* that the Pro is a faster shoe than the Speed due to the plate and how that makes the shoe "ride" (the Speed is currently my fav shoe for everyday training), but I still feel like the Vaporflys are faster than everything else (haven't used Alphafly).

For me the Vaporlfy 4% and Endorphin Speed feel equally fast*, the Endorphin Speed might actually feel slightly faster due to the "rocker". However, past 20-25km at HIM pace my legs definitely feel much better with the 4% than with the Speed. Compared to the Zoom Fly 3 both feel much faster, the legs feel roughly the same after 25km for the Speed and Zoom Fly 3.

* I should still do a comparative test on the treadmill to see what the actual verdict is on this.

I have both the Endorphin Pro and the Alphafly, and they seem to be about the same efficiency for me (not a strict scientific test, but see my attempt at: https://besse.info/...12-Running-on-carbon).

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https://besse.info/
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2012033

 
Interesting study related to running efficiency and plate stiffness :

https://www.tandfonline.com/...rnalCode=tfws20&

Simple summary :

1) if you run fast, you need more stiffness than if you run "less fast"
2) if you are a heel striker, 1) is very true, but not much if your are midfoot/front foot striker

My understanding is that this study was done with Saucony, and possibly was one of the reason for having 2 models :

Endorphin Pro : pebax + rigid carbon plate
Endorphin Speed : pebax + less rigid nylon plate

Personally, being old, slow and midfoot striker, I should be more efficient with less stiffness, so more Speed than Pro

Also make sense to do the base training in Speed vs racing in Pro for faster runner.

In the article originally post on top of this thread, running efficiency of Endorphin Pro and Nike Next was similar for this runner (Malindi Elmore), but the foam density and plate stiffness of these 2 shoes can possibly play differently for another runner (not sure what is Next plate stiffness compared to Pro).

Interesting

The Alphafly being apparently similar in efficiency to the Vaporfly Next (in average), we do have another indication theses shoes and the Endorphin Pro are in the same ballpark.

Too bad you couldn't get the Adios Pro.

Please keep up posted if you test other shoes :-)

You can't compare the two. The speed has a nylon plate and the vaporfly has a carbon place. Hence why they compared the Pro and the vaporfly.........not the speed. The speed is training shoe. The Pro is the racer

I test shoes the same way: perceived effort and any negative physical effects during / after trying a shoe. I just bought a pair of new Alphafly and new pair of Vaporfly, which I tested back to back this morning. I currently have a pair of Vaporfly with around 200 miles on them.

I switched back and forth between the new shoes every 3/4 mile, and the Alphafly feels weird but I was faster with the same perceived effort. They feel like I'm running on a rubber track and pretty bouncy. I'm going to run some more in them, but at this point I'm going to keep the Alphas and return the Vapors.

Another thing which needs to be considered is that when you are a runner that pronates a bit or more then a bit that is going to cost energy, efficiency and eventually time.

So for some runners the Saucony End. Pro will be a by far superior shoe since it is so much more stable the for example the Next% or the Adidas Adios Pro.
Also the new Hoka Rocket X dissapointed in this way, carbon plated but non-pebax and you feel that in the energy return immediately. I dig the fit of this shoe, i really love it, it comes close to the Adidas and you get really excited. And then you run and are like...wtf.

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Have you done any long runs in them, without switching back and forth? Does one leave your legs feeling more fresh afterwards than the other?

I haven't tried alpha's yet, but had a pair in my hands recently and was surprised at how stiff they felt compared to the vapors, but maybe that doesn't matter?

I have run in both and I agree with you but unless you have a "pretty" foot strike the next% can punish you. They can get pretty wobbly when you get tired. The Pro is more forgiving and stable. The Pro is a more of a harsh ride but on the other hand you don't get that dead bouncy feeling you get from the next%. If Saucony could get the feeling of the Speed and put it with the pop of the Pro it might be a nike killer.

The speed is the most cushy, fastest, lightest, fastest, trainer I have ever run in. The Pro is WAY more durable than the Next% and for the money probably a better buy but I don't think I would get rid of my Next% to buy the Pro until my Nike wore out.....which doesn't take that long sadly.

How many km's do you have on your nikes? I have a pair of vapors that have over 600km on them, and while they may not have quite the bounce of a new pair, they still feel -WAY- less punishing than my Saucony Endorphin Speeds (that might have 150km at most)

200 miles and they have lost their pop and the damage to the foam is getting kind of bad. I don't have that "pretty" foot strike so that is my issue not the shoe.

I'm not bagging the Nike I do like them and they are fast but the closest competition they have is the Endorphin Pro right now...IMO.

The Saucony is easily a 400 mile shoe.

Is the endorphin pro the latest out from saucony? I ask because the shoe tested for Nike is NOT the latest out, granted there are no data around whether it is any improvement on the VF Next but if it is and if this is saucony's latest, were still talking about other companies still catching up.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I haven't done any long runs in the Alphas yet as I just got them yesterday, but I'm definitely going to do that while I'm still in the return window. I have done plenty of long runs in my current Vaporflies, and they do a good job of keeping the foot and knee pain / soreness I sometimes get with other shoes.

I think it's hard to compare the stiffness of the Alphas because it's almost like a two part shoe with the air bubble up front. I have slight arthritis in my feet, and I'm hoping the Alphas will help reduce the pounding on really long runs.

A real lab test comparing Saucony Endorphin Pro and the Nike Vaporfly Next.

And Saucony win. But not much, within error margin.

https://www.outsideonline.com/...campaign=onsiteshare

https://twitter.com/.../1328824119417315328


I'm a bit biased and I do know personally all the players here really well ( Malindi, Dr. Trent, Alex Hutchinson(writer) and of course Malindi's Husband Graham Hood - WaySub4 here in the forum), but it was nice to see this total Team Canada effort to make sure that Malindi was running in the right shoe for HER, and that this was truly one of those win/win sponsorship deals!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This is just to show how different all of us are, but someone else in this forum tested the VFs, vs Endorphin Pro and Speed, and his results indicated that for him the speeds were the closest to the VFs. I have both and h I think the Pros are the best for me. I think the Speeds are more of a "Fast" trainer.

As per the research paper linked in post #11, optimal plate stiffness (resulting in best individual running efficiency) depend on your speed, foot strike, gait, ...

So, yes, for one person Pro can be better, for another it will be the Speed, for another it will be the VF Next, ...

Yeah, the other aspect is that not all "old school" racing flats are created equa. I did my own "bro-science" test on the treadmill, compared Alphaflys, Endorphin Pros, vs old school racing flats Saucony Type A and Saucony Fastwitch. The test was bunch of 3 k intervals at constant tempo/half marathon effort (RPE), which for me is around 3:40/km @ 2 % incline. Not surprisingly, I found I could increase the pace down to 3:37/km with the carbon plated shoes while keeping the effort constant. The Type A tested the worst for me, I had to increase the pace up to 3:42-43/km for the effort to feel the same and they just felt dead. The Fastwitch felt actually pretty good. This is hard to describe but I found the Alphaflys "too responsive" and I am almost convinced that the Endorphin Pro is perhaps the best shoe for me with a compromise of bounce and stability. Would love to test the RC elites, Hyperion and Adidas, but I am running out of triathlon budget this year.

Really wish I would still have my Adidas Adios Boost 2 I used in races back in 2015, they felt very fast and responsive. One of the papers show the new generation to be slower than VFs.

Mizuno also had a very fast (for me) racing flat, the Wave Hitogami (which was discontinued for some unknown reason and replaced with Sonic, which feels really slow and it's not even the same design). Too bad I can't find them, otherwise I would have tested them. Interestingly enough, Mizuno "wave" concept, felt somewhat close to 2020's carbon plated shoes. I used to find their "wave" racing flats to be very bouncy and responsive compared to the Type A or Asics Hyperelite (?) for example.