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Rolling Start Race Strategy
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I have completed a 70.3 with rolling starts for each age group, but never with one rolling start for all age groups. I'm curious, for those that like to race their competitors as much as the clock, what your thoughts are on race strategy. Seems like it's not possible to know where you are in the race.

From the perspective of self-seeding the swim, seems like a good strategy for a strong swimmer would be to sandbag the time a bit just to ensure you don't have a lonely day?
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a reasonably slow swimmer with a better bike. It benefits me to have less people to work through on the bike to avoid getting held up and get ahead of the busy parts of the field as soon as possible.

I like to seed my swim a bit faster than I am capable of, but wide on the outside so as not to cause trouble and get bashed up. I'll then assess the pack speed on my inside and ease my way in when they seem a bit - but not too much - faster than me and hope to grab some good feet.

No real changes for the rest of the race - you look to pass those in your AG - for me the only impact is late in the run when you have to be aware that the guy 30 seconds ahead of you may be behind you in the 'real' race and the guy you've just overtaken may still be ahead. Net result is no 'settling' for your position if you have a bit of gap in front and behind - run to the line and no having a play in the chute!

Had this for real on Sunday just gone - Ironman Wales - where a 4th AG and within 1 roll down of KQ/podium became 5th in AG when a guy who entered the water 8 minutes after me crossed the line 7 minutes after and ended up 1 minute ahead. I'd not clocked him in the race so he'd crept up. It's hard to spot rivals in the second half of the run across such a wide timescale when the run course has filled up. Ultimately did not matter as 1,2, and 3 took the slots but shows what can happen - it may have been a deliberate ploy in his part to creep up almost unseen. Good support covering the tracking and giving you the right information would help, but I didn;t have this.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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I'm kinda wondering the same. I'm a FOP swimmer and not sure whether to go off at the front or not. Pros: clean water, better chance of someone faster to draft off of? Cons: competing against people that started later than you, ie they end up with more information throughout the race. Pro to starting later (in addition to the getting more information on competitors), there's got to be some sort of current generated from 2k people all swimming in the same direction. If you can swim through this mass seems like you'd swim faster. Cons: lots more interaction with other swimmers, less chance of finding faster feet to draft.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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2 years ago, I seeded myself properly(in the 1:01-1:15 group. I swam 1:05). I went into the water 4 min after the gun. Within a few hundred meters, I’m passing people like they are standing still. These are clowns who seeded themselves in the 60 or less group. Crazy. I’m a good biker and great runner, so it kinda hurt me because i finished 7th overall, 2 min from 3rd. With a multi lap run with an out and back where you can see your competition, I would’ve pushed harder if I knew I was only a few min back from 3rd :(. I’m doing a race in a few weeks and I think I will seed myself based on a combination of my swim skill and predicted finish time
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [Afg53] [ In reply to ]
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Afg53 wrote:
2 years ago, I seeded myself properly(in the 1:01-1:15 group. I swam 1:05). I went into the water 4 min after the gun. Within a few hundred meters, I’m passing people like they are standing still. These are clowns who seeded themselves in the 60 or less group. Crazy. I’m a good biker and great runner, so it kinda hurt me because i finished 7th overall, 2 min from 3rd. With a multi lap run with an out and back where you can see your competition, I would’ve pushed harder if I knew I was only a few min back from 3rd :(. I’m doing a race in a few weeks and I think I will seed myself based on a combination of my swim skill and predicted finish time

Why not just push your hardest regardless?

While I like the rolling start more than any other currently popular/WTC type, I am an advocate of the popular ST proposal of having a 'competitive' mass start followed by a 'finisher' rolling start. As per the rolling start, I don't care what AG anyone else is in, my goal is to produce the fastest time possible within my means and that just means proper pacing start to finish. If I am able to sprint at the finish, I'll know I could have pushed harder. Only in a mass start would I pay attention to ages on calves and track competitors in the run.

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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Seems like it's not possible to know where you are in the race.


I've been to a couple of IM races now, with athletes that either myself or my wife have been working with who are are contenders for top AG spots, and I must admit it's a bit frustrating. I know it's a small select group, but it seems to be universally, among the top AG competitors, and those that are following them at races, the Rolling Starts are not something that they are happy about.

I completely understand IM's reasoning to go to them - it is safer and more controlled for the swim start. However, on multi-lap courses, like say the 3 lap bike and 2 lap run, at IMC, after the first lap of the bike, physically, while watching the race on the side of the road or following along, you have no idea what place an athlete is in - and they often don't know either!


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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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wbattaile wrote:
I have completed a 70.3 with rolling starts for each age group, but never with one rolling start for all age groups. I'm curious, for those that like to race their competitors as much as the clock, what your thoughts are on race strategy. Seems like it's not possible to know where you are in the race.
I have done a couple HIMs and a couple Olympics with full rolling starts. The nut is that you really have no clue who your challengers are. I like to finish top 20 in the Olympics and win AG or place in Masters. I am a good, but not FOP swimmer. I try to accurately self-seed, and I am near-ish to the front in most races. In the Olympics, I rarely see any other bikers, and I can track my likely competitors on the run. In HIMs, I am clueless. I just run my race, and look up the results at the end.

IMHO, I would seed the swim accurately. Assuming you are decent-ish, then anyone who passes you on the run or bike is a problem. You would want to keep the number of unknown challengers to a minimum. After the swim, anyone ahead of you must be passed or gained on to win. If you are further back on the swim, then the field of potentially faster challengers is larger and unknown. You might pass a crapton of people on the bike, but there could still be a bunch more you never see and beat you.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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wbattaile wrote:
From the perspective of self-seeding the swim, seems like a good strategy for a strong swimmer would be to sandbag the time a bit just to ensure you don't have a lonely day?

No, the opposite. Seed yourself further to the front so you can draft off swimmers that are even stronger, and so you don't have to alter your line to swim around slower swimmers. I'd much rather get swam over top of a couple times than have to swim around a few Clydesdale tortoises.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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"Out of sight, out of mind"

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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Knowing where your competitors are is really only a factor on the run. At that poing you really just need a really competent Sherpa that knows how to read the tracker. They can tell you that you were two minutes behind the leader at mile 4.2, even if you are at mile 8 and you are running 0:30 min/mile faster or something to that effect. It is not ideal, but rolling starts never are for people racing for places. It MAY be an advantage to start later, but I really don't see it as much of a factor.

For the swim, I am a decent swimmer, not great... Just under 30 minutes-ish for a half distance solo effort. I seed myself up as far up as possible. I then settle into my pace/effort and wait for a slightly stronger swimmer to pass me and draft that person. I am not looking to draft a 30 minute swimmer. I am looking to draft a 28 minute swimmer so that I can swim at my 30 min effort but finish in 28 minutes due to the draft without expending extra energy. To do that, I try to start before the 28 minute swimmer I will end up drafting.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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Good question. I have done two races with rolling start this year. Neither of them went ideal and I am hoping to find the right recipe next week at 70.3 Istria ;-)

First race was IM Germany in Frankfurt. I am usually a FOP, but wanted to start conservatively, so I placed myself in around the 8~10th start wave. Was way to far behind the fastest swimmers. I overtook on the first loop and have been pretty alone the second loop.

Second race was a half at Challenge Walchsee. Placed myself in first row. Was not able to hold pace of fastest guys, had been overtaken by a few other guys from second or third wave and have been by my own again.

I am not concerned about knowing where in the race I am, I don't see that as an issue. I need to find my own pace in full IM or half. Makes no difference if I knew that a competitor from my AG passes me. If he is faster, he is faster and does not change a thing for me, so generally, I appreciate rolling start. Just did not manage (yet) to place me in the ideal wave ;-)
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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TennesseeJed wrote:
For the swim, I am a decent swimmer, not great... Just under 30 minutes-ish for a half distance solo effort. I seed myself up as far up as possible. I then settle into my pace/effort and wait for a slightly stronger swimmer to pass me and draft that person. I am not looking to draft a 30 minute swimmer. I am looking to draft a 28 minute swimmer so that I can swim at my 30 min effort but finish in 28 minutes due to the draft without expending extra energy. To do that, I try to start before the 28 minute swimmer I will end up drafting.

This is definitely the best strategy for a rolling start and it's probably the one I'll adopt going forward. I really don't like having someone faster coming crashing over me, so in the past I've tended to seed myself conservatively. The problem is that an awful lot of people seem to seed themselves much closer to the front than they should. I've been surprised how many people I pass, particularly early in the swim. Plus, putting myself too far back in the swim leaves me passing lots of people on the bike where I'm much stronger than I am in the water.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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For 70.3 Lake Placid, the rolling start waves were as follows:

Under 26 minutes
26 - 35 minutes
36 - 45 minutes
46 - 55 minutes
56+ minutes

There was no age group derivation.

They held up signs for each wave, and announced them, which I thought was pretty effective (at least I found it helpful). They did not do that in the previous IM 70.3 I raced.

For that first swim wave, they don't do a mass start? If not, that's surprising to me. Maybe establish some kind of qualification if you want to be in the first (and fastest) wave?

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Last edited by: Don_W: Sep 14, 18 10:12
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder about waiting a long time on a 70.3, swimming and around the 23-24 mark coming in and being able to ride through the field.

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
I wonder about waiting a long time on a 70.3, swimming and around the 23-24 mark coming in and being able to ride through the field.

That was my thought. I speculate that it's faster to start later on the swim, then ride through the field, than to get a clean swim and ride at the front all day.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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I have been struggling with this for a while now trying to figure out the best way to race in this format.

A few situations I have run into:

1) Earlier this season I raced a rather sizable Oly (just shy of 1000 participants) that did a rolling start. I put myself near the front of the race, but I was still maybe the 20th person into the water. I had a slower than predicted swim, I think due to tidal currents, but in the end I think everyone did. I was the 6th person off the bike according to the announcer coming in to T2. I passed one guy about 2 miles into the run. At the one turnaround on the course, the race director, who was on a bike leading the 1st place guy, points to me as I run past and says I was 5th. I could not see 4th at all ahead of me. And I couldn't see anyone behind me at this point. The course was very straight so it would have been easy to see at least a quarter mile out and back. At the turnaround I noticed the guy ahead of me was about 1 minute ahead, and there was nobody behind me for at least a minute. I crossed the finish line 5th. I ended up 6th in the results and 2nd in Age Group. Not a damn clue who the guy was that got me by 38 seconds for 1st AG and 5th OA. No clue where he was all race. I didn't recognize him. But he sure as hell wasn't one of the 4 guys who finished ahead of me.

2) I just raced a 70.3 with a self-seeded start. I lined up at the very front and was maybe the 4th person to cross the start line. I swam spot-on what I thought I would. Around mile 10 on the run I passed a guy in my AG. Made it a solid pass too, since I knew that other than 3 other guys on course, everyone that was ahead of me was actually ahead of me, and I also was sure this guy wasn't one of those 3 guys. In the end he beat my time by 6 seconds even though I crossed the finish line almost a minute ahead of him.

3) A friend won 1st female overall at a 70.3 in a rolling start race by starting all the way in the back (like 2000th-ish starter of 2500). This race was designated as a first-come-first-served line up instead of a seed by time situation so that was actually not at all intentional. She just got in line late. The woman that "broke the tape" wasn't even close to the winner of the race, and nobody knew my friend was even out there racing from the back, she was maybe the 60th woman to cross the finish line... but she had the fastest time of the day.

These three situations stick out in my mind as examples of why it's so damn hard to actually RACE when the start is rolling. You can't figure out where you are with respect to anyone else. You can't know if someone you just passed was ahead of you, or behind you. You can never tell if the effort you just put in to making a solid pass was worth the burned match. People can pass you virtually and you never know they were even there racing.

I don't know the answer to this other than race your ass off and see where it shakes out after the race is over and everyone has finished the day. The days of racing head to head are over.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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Lost 5th Ag at AZ 70.3 one year due to split Ag start. I remember passing him on the run but he still beat me by :26

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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That's unfortunate. I prefer mass AG starts for this reason.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
From the perspective of self-seeding the swim, seems like a good strategy for a strong swimmer would be to sandbag the time a bit just to ensure you don't have a lonely day?


No, the opposite. Seed yourself further to the front so you can draft off swimmers that are even stronger, and so you don't have to alter your line to swim around slower swimmers. I'd much rather get swam over top of a couple times than have to swim around a few Clydesdale tortoises.

Makes sense for a swim-only race. But if I can swim 28 minutes for a half; i'm not going to catch 24 minute feet. Maybe 26 or 27 minutes at best.

On the other hand, if I start 15 minutes later and ride through a field of 1,000 people I probably gain 5-10 minutes on the bike.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
I have been struggling with this for a while now trying to figure out the best way to race in this format.

A few situations I have run into:

1) Earlier this season I raced a rather sizable Oly (just shy of 1000 participants) that did a rolling start. I put myself near the front of the race, but I was still maybe the 20th person into the water. I had a slower than predicted swim, I think due to tidal currents, but in the end I think everyone did. I was the 6th person off the bike according to the announcer coming in to T2. I passed one guy about 2 miles into the run. At the one turnaround on the course, the race director, who was on a bike leading the 1st place guy, points to me as I run past and says I was 5th. I could not see 4th at all ahead of me. And I couldn't see anyone behind me at this point. The course was very straight so it would have been easy to see at least a quarter mile out and back. At the turnaround I noticed the guy ahead of me was about 1 minute ahead, and there was nobody behind me for at least a minute. I crossed the finish line 5th. I ended up 6th in the results and 2nd in Age Group. Not a damn clue who the guy was that got me by 38 seconds for 1st AG and 5th OA. No clue where he was all race. I didn't recognize him. But he sure as hell wasn't one of the 4 guys who finished ahead of me.

2) I just raced a 70.3 with a self-seeded start. I lined up at the very front and was maybe the 4th person to cross the start line. I swam spot-on what I thought I would. Around mile 10 on the run I passed a guy in my AG. Made it a solid pass too, since I knew that other than 3 other guys on course, everyone that was ahead of me was actually ahead of me, and I also was sure this guy wasn't one of those 3 guys. In the end he beat my time by 6 seconds even though I crossed the finish line almost a minute ahead of him.

3) A friend won 1st female overall at a 70.3 in a rolling start race by starting all the way in the back (like 2000th-ish starter of 2500). This race was designated as a first-come-first-served line up instead of a seed by time situation so that was actually not at all intentional. She just got in line late. The woman that "broke the tape" wasn't even close to the winner of the race, and nobody knew my friend was even out there racing from the back, she was maybe the 60th woman to cross the finish line... but she had the fastest time of the day.

These three situations stick out in my mind as examples of why it's so damn hard to actually RACE when the start is rolling. You can't figure out where you are with respect to anyone else. You can't know if someone you just passed was ahead of you, or behind you. You can never tell if the effort you just put in to making a solid pass was worth the burned match. People can pass you virtually and you never know they were even there racing.

I don't know the answer to this other than race your ass off and see where it shakes out after the race is over and everyone has finished the day. The days of racing head to head are over.

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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Riding through a field is not as easy as it sounds... two recent examples for my husband and I...

Santa Rosa 70.3 - swim was canceled and my husband (very strong cyclist) had one of the highest bib numbers (30XX) so started almost last. He had to navigate tons of traffic on the bike, including some dangerous situations through aid stations and generally with athletes not staying to the right, or multiple athletes passing others at the same time.

South Africa Worlds 70.3 - this was a wave start and I was in the very last female wave (45-49). As a strong cyclist, it was challenging to navigate by riders who didn't appear to know they needed to stay to the right... and it was narrow in places when you were trying to pass someone who was also passing another.

You could argue that there are benefits to coming from behind and slingshot'ing past 100s of riders over the course of but in my experience it's far more dangerous and seems to slow you down more than it helps you.

I'm a 1:05 swimmer but at the pointy end of the women's AG field overall and in the last two rolling start IMs that I've done (South Africa 2017 and Argentina 2017) , I seeded myself in sub 60mins. In both races, I've swam the entire way in free water, found some feet occasionally and have been rarely bumped by others.

Admittedly, rolling starts do mean that it's hard to know where you stand in the race... but I could barely tell anyway when races were mass starts, especially in multi-loop races. The IM app has improved so having someone there to tell you how you're doing can be beneficial... and if they're savvy enough, they can scroll back and see who is coming up fast from the later starters.



wbattaile wrote:
realAB wrote:
I wonder about waiting a long time on a 70.3, swimming and around the 23-24 mark coming in and being able to ride through the field.


That was my thought. I speculate that it's faster to start later on the swim, then ride through the field, than to get a clean swim and ride at the front all day.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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I could still find quite a bit of clean water if I waited quite a while.

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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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As a good swimmer who seeds herself properly, I get really tired of dealing with asshats that think they are going to gain a ton of time by drafting while I have to swim around and sometimes over you. Too many people have this drafting strategy, which ends up making it impossible to draft because the guy next to you is most likely just as slow if not slower. I've swam my whole life and would also argue that few people other than top swimmers really know how and can draft effectively in an open water swim.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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 I like to start right where I will finish the swim. In FLA I thought I would be about the 200-300th swimmer so I just let that many go. If I were a fast swimmer I would sandbag a tiny bit, like 30-40 guys. Don't overthink it.
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Re: Rolling Start Race Strategy [abISU] [ In reply to ]
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abISU wrote:
As a good swimmer who seeds herself properly, I get really tired of dealing with asshats that think they are going to gain a ton of time by drafting while I have to swim around and sometimes over you. Too many people have this drafting strategy, which ends up making it impossible to draft because the guy next to you is most likely just as slow if not slower. I've swam my whole life and would also argue that few people other than top swimmers really know how and can draft effectively in an open water swim.

Its really no different than a running race where everyone self seeds extremely poorly. I used to think it was because people just have no idea what their pace is (first timers), but it's pure overconfidence. Since everyone else is -5mins off, you need to be as well. It makes no difference between front of the pack and back of the pack. Everyone is -5 mins.
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