...and their Swedish goggles and Vanquisher look-alike goggles look exactly like the generic ones sold by Swimoutlet.com and other companies. These are all made in Asia somewhere, but they stamp "Sporti" on Monday's, "TYR" on Tuesday's, "Kiefer" on Wednesday's, ROKA on Thursday's.... But of course, ROKA charges more for the same items. Because if it's more expensive, a triathlete will buy it with few questions asked.
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Re: Roka Swimwear & Gear Durability [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Roka Swimwear & Gear Durability [140triguy]
[ In reply to ]
140triguy wrote:
...and their Swedish goggles and Vanquisher look-alike goggles look exactly like the generic ones sold by Swimoutlet.com and other companies. These are all made in Asia somewhere, but they stamp "Sporti" on Monday's, "TYR" on Tuesday's, "Kiefer" on Wednesday's, ROKA on Thursday's.... But of course, ROKA charges more for the same items. Because if it's more expensive, a triathlete will buy it with few questions asked.Roka goggles don't work for my face, but seem anything but generic to me, so I find this post puzzling
Re: Roka Swimwear & Gear Durability [niccolo]
[ In reply to ]
Look at the pictures and descriptions of the ROKA S1 (Swedish goggles copy) and F1 (Speedo Vanquisher goggles copy) and compare to the "house brand" at swimoutlet.com, which is the Sporti brand. It looks to me as if S1 and the Sporti "Swedes" are made in the same factory, and the F1 is made in the same factory as the Sporti brand. So, ROKA and Sporti (and Kiefer and TYR) buy what I term a generic goggle from the same place (since they can't copy exactly the original Malmsten Swedish or Speedo Vanquisher goggles). ROKA then sells for far more than the other brands, but which are really the same item. If ROKA can assure the buyer that the same factory does a little something extra for their goggles that make those (much) better than the other clones with different names being churned out at the same factory, then they're justified in marking the price up. Otherwise, pay less for the same thing.
Re: Roka Swimwear & Gear Durability [140triguy]
[ In reply to ]
Hi Ya'll,
Let me help clear up some incorrect assumptions about what we're offering on swim equipment and goggles. Happy to be more transparent if useful.
Our "classic" swim equipment products like fins, ankle strap as well as the first "classic" kickboard and buoy we sold (but have since replaced) are open mold items. These are super low volume, accessory products we made first for our athletes to help fill out the swim gear bag and then later made available to customers after sponsored teams asked for them. They do not provide material revenue to our business, so we didn't design a custom mold from the outset. We felt for what they were, they were solid. In the case of fins, we ordered very small units for athletes and teams, and because our units are significantly smaller than the Speedos of the world, it's reflected in the price. They have done fine and overall customers are pleased with them, but we don't have plans to massively invest in R&D for new fin styles. By contrast, on our other swim equipment (new kickboard, buoy, paddles, etc), we designed those ourselves in-house 100% with our own CAD and have exclusive production on those styles and own the industrial design. We also actually have a patent on the paddles. So it's been a progression, and we're willing to invest more when we see opportunity to make the product better.
On goggles, we took a similar approach on industrial design progression when we launched that category in 2015. Not knowing if there was demand nor which styles would resonate with consumers (because of different form factor and fit preferences), we initially selected the best open mold products we could source. These were S1, F1, F2, and X1. Apart from the S1, these styles were not in the market.
For the uninitiated, this is how many folks who sell goggles in the swim and tri space operate (buying styles developed by the factories themselves), which makes sense if you have limited capital or limited in-house engineering expertise or just want to be super efficient. Keep in mind, goggle manufacturing is very difficult, so the best factories have gotten ahead by vertically integrating and then doing their own R&D. Every year they invent new styles and then pitch them to brands, just like how raw material suppliers and textile mills like Polartec or Schoeller go ahead and knit or weave their own fabrics on spec for sale, and then brands like Arc'Teryx and North Face and others buy them to make into garments. Some brands develop their own textiles from scratch (we've done it), but sometimes not. In the case of goggles, making the finished good is quite difficult, so factories regularly mock up full goggles for brands to use as inspiration or actual production. Most of it is awful in my opinion, but sometimes there are diamonds in the rough. Once you identify something you want, you can customize from there or just buy as-is. If you customize it, it's yours. If not, then you need to buy enough to offset their R&D and get exclusivity by geography, time, etc. So there are a variety of ways to engage with a goggle factory, and it's not always cut and dry.
In our case, we initially sourced the best open mold goggles we could, because we weren't sure about the market and hadn't yet hired the kick-ass engineering team we have today. After we sourced the styles, we took the extra step of developing custom lens tints that are exclusive to us, because that was value we could add whether we designed the actual mold or not. We did a bunch of field testing and identified tints that better suited a variety of environments in which people train and race. For example, if you look at the ambers and blues and other colors from competitors, you will see that our color story is much more sophisticated. We launched those goggles with our novel SPCTRM story in 2015, providing nine different tints for different light and background use cases, to help people see the buoys faster in open water swimming. This was very well received and encouraged us to invest more in the category. From there we did hire in-house engineering expertise and saw an opportunity to make sighting buoys easier by tilting back the lens and removing as much material from the top of the lens as possible. That concept became the R1. We made that goggle with our own CAD design and custom injection mold that is exclusive to us. We have multiple patents now on that product for its retroscopic lens tilt, and it's done very well in the market.
In terms of who makes what where, we make our goggles in four different factories, so I'm happy to dig further into the styles to help address comments about S1 and F1 and Speedo Vanquisher. The S1 is an open mold product without exclusivity but uses custom lens tints that are exclusive to us. I grew up swimming in Malmsten swedes and did reach out to them, since they white label some swedes for other brands like Speedo. Their units were too high, however, and they don't make a swede that has a bumper on it as far as I can remember, which is why we selected the one we did. Keep in mind, our unit sales on S1 are incredibly low, so our purchasing power is relatively weak, and the economics don't justify making our own two-shot injection mold. In fact our units are so low, we haven't even re-ordered inventory for that style in quite some time and couldn't justify extending our SPCTRM color story completely for that style. At some point we may very well stop selling it. It is our lowest selling goggle by far, as you'd probably expect.
On the F1, although the general form factor is similar to Vanquisher, lots of things are different on that frame and gasket from a Vanquisher. To improve the F1, we changed the gasket design to make it more comfortable and more reliable. We also added multiple new, custom interchangeable nose bridge sizes that are exclusive injection molds we made. That project began with Mario Mola requesting a higher, more comfortable nosebridge and then subsequently was rolled out to all of our customers to help out folks get a better fit. I think we ship 5 or 6 different nose bridge pieces for the F1 now instead of the original three. So in the F1 we took an open mold product and then improved it not just in lens tints but also in the gasket and nosebridge molds. Whether it beats Vanquisher is for you to decide, and YMMV. All good. But we think we've got a compelling product at that form factor.
For folks who like bigger goggles with more field of view, we made the F2 and X1. Those designs were brought to use by two different factories, and again have custom tints and some other customizations to make them our own.
Lastly, the R1 is a custom mold we designed ourselves and is 100% unique to ROKA, both in industrial design and lens tints. We have patents on the goggle and we continue to make it better. For example, we recently upgraded the anti-fog coating process to make it better and more consistent in application, and that process is unique to ROKA. No other brand that makes goggles in that particular factory is currently using our anti-fog process, and that includes bigger brands.
Looking ahead, we have several other goggles in development where we are doing 100% in-house CAD development, and those are being made in a fifth factory that doesn't make goggles for anyone but does make products for Apple, Audi and others. They offer a level of manufacturing sophistication and excellence that doesn't currently exist in any goggle factories, so while it's taking some time, we do think it will be worth it because we're trying to really push the envelope and do some new things.
If anyone wants to try our goggles or gear, we'd encourage you to do so. They have a 30 day moneyback guarantee (even after swimming in them), so best advice if on the fence is give em a shot and see what you think.
Hope that's helpful and clarifies any misconceptions.
Best,
Rob
---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
Let me help clear up some incorrect assumptions about what we're offering on swim equipment and goggles. Happy to be more transparent if useful.
Our "classic" swim equipment products like fins, ankle strap as well as the first "classic" kickboard and buoy we sold (but have since replaced) are open mold items. These are super low volume, accessory products we made first for our athletes to help fill out the swim gear bag and then later made available to customers after sponsored teams asked for them. They do not provide material revenue to our business, so we didn't design a custom mold from the outset. We felt for what they were, they were solid. In the case of fins, we ordered very small units for athletes and teams, and because our units are significantly smaller than the Speedos of the world, it's reflected in the price. They have done fine and overall customers are pleased with them, but we don't have plans to massively invest in R&D for new fin styles. By contrast, on our other swim equipment (new kickboard, buoy, paddles, etc), we designed those ourselves in-house 100% with our own CAD and have exclusive production on those styles and own the industrial design. We also actually have a patent on the paddles. So it's been a progression, and we're willing to invest more when we see opportunity to make the product better.
On goggles, we took a similar approach on industrial design progression when we launched that category in 2015. Not knowing if there was demand nor which styles would resonate with consumers (because of different form factor and fit preferences), we initially selected the best open mold products we could source. These were S1, F1, F2, and X1. Apart from the S1, these styles were not in the market.
For the uninitiated, this is how many folks who sell goggles in the swim and tri space operate (buying styles developed by the factories themselves), which makes sense if you have limited capital or limited in-house engineering expertise or just want to be super efficient. Keep in mind, goggle manufacturing is very difficult, so the best factories have gotten ahead by vertically integrating and then doing their own R&D. Every year they invent new styles and then pitch them to brands, just like how raw material suppliers and textile mills like Polartec or Schoeller go ahead and knit or weave their own fabrics on spec for sale, and then brands like Arc'Teryx and North Face and others buy them to make into garments. Some brands develop their own textiles from scratch (we've done it), but sometimes not. In the case of goggles, making the finished good is quite difficult, so factories regularly mock up full goggles for brands to use as inspiration or actual production. Most of it is awful in my opinion, but sometimes there are diamonds in the rough. Once you identify something you want, you can customize from there or just buy as-is. If you customize it, it's yours. If not, then you need to buy enough to offset their R&D and get exclusivity by geography, time, etc. So there are a variety of ways to engage with a goggle factory, and it's not always cut and dry.
In our case, we initially sourced the best open mold goggles we could, because we weren't sure about the market and hadn't yet hired the kick-ass engineering team we have today. After we sourced the styles, we took the extra step of developing custom lens tints that are exclusive to us, because that was value we could add whether we designed the actual mold or not. We did a bunch of field testing and identified tints that better suited a variety of environments in which people train and race. For example, if you look at the ambers and blues and other colors from competitors, you will see that our color story is much more sophisticated. We launched those goggles with our novel SPCTRM story in 2015, providing nine different tints for different light and background use cases, to help people see the buoys faster in open water swimming. This was very well received and encouraged us to invest more in the category. From there we did hire in-house engineering expertise and saw an opportunity to make sighting buoys easier by tilting back the lens and removing as much material from the top of the lens as possible. That concept became the R1. We made that goggle with our own CAD design and custom injection mold that is exclusive to us. We have multiple patents now on that product for its retroscopic lens tilt, and it's done very well in the market.
In terms of who makes what where, we make our goggles in four different factories, so I'm happy to dig further into the styles to help address comments about S1 and F1 and Speedo Vanquisher. The S1 is an open mold product without exclusivity but uses custom lens tints that are exclusive to us. I grew up swimming in Malmsten swedes and did reach out to them, since they white label some swedes for other brands like Speedo. Their units were too high, however, and they don't make a swede that has a bumper on it as far as I can remember, which is why we selected the one we did. Keep in mind, our unit sales on S1 are incredibly low, so our purchasing power is relatively weak, and the economics don't justify making our own two-shot injection mold. In fact our units are so low, we haven't even re-ordered inventory for that style in quite some time and couldn't justify extending our SPCTRM color story completely for that style. At some point we may very well stop selling it. It is our lowest selling goggle by far, as you'd probably expect.
On the F1, although the general form factor is similar to Vanquisher, lots of things are different on that frame and gasket from a Vanquisher. To improve the F1, we changed the gasket design to make it more comfortable and more reliable. We also added multiple new, custom interchangeable nose bridge sizes that are exclusive injection molds we made. That project began with Mario Mola requesting a higher, more comfortable nosebridge and then subsequently was rolled out to all of our customers to help out folks get a better fit. I think we ship 5 or 6 different nose bridge pieces for the F1 now instead of the original three. So in the F1 we took an open mold product and then improved it not just in lens tints but also in the gasket and nosebridge molds. Whether it beats Vanquisher is for you to decide, and YMMV. All good. But we think we've got a compelling product at that form factor.
For folks who like bigger goggles with more field of view, we made the F2 and X1. Those designs were brought to use by two different factories, and again have custom tints and some other customizations to make them our own.
Lastly, the R1 is a custom mold we designed ourselves and is 100% unique to ROKA, both in industrial design and lens tints. We have patents on the goggle and we continue to make it better. For example, we recently upgraded the anti-fog coating process to make it better and more consistent in application, and that process is unique to ROKA. No other brand that makes goggles in that particular factory is currently using our anti-fog process, and that includes bigger brands.
Looking ahead, we have several other goggles in development where we are doing 100% in-house CAD development, and those are being made in a fifth factory that doesn't make goggles for anyone but does make products for Apple, Audi and others. They offer a level of manufacturing sophistication and excellence that doesn't currently exist in any goggle factories, so while it's taking some time, we do think it will be worth it because we're trying to really push the envelope and do some new things.
If anyone wants to try our goggles or gear, we'd encourage you to do so. They have a 30 day moneyback guarantee (even after swimming in them), so best advice if on the fence is give em a shot and see what you think.
Hope that's helpful and clarifies any misconceptions.
Best,
Rob
---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
Re: Roka Swimwear & Gear Durability [ROKA]
[ In reply to ]
You're the new Emilo. Thanks for taking the time to explain the process. I have ordered lots of goggles from Roka- had a few problems with the goggle gasket - near the nose, it curled over and no longer sealed. Customer service has also been excellent in replacing.
ROKA wrote:
Hi Ya'll, Let me help clear up some incorrect assumptions about what we're offering on swim equipment and goggles. Happy to be more transparent if useful.
Our "classic" swim equipment products like fins, ankle strap as well as the first "classic" kickboard and buoy we sold (but have since replaced) are open mold items. These are super low volume, accessory products we made first for our athletes to help fill out the swim gear bag and then later made available to customers after sponsored teams asked for them. They do not provide material revenue to our business, so we didn't design a custom mold from the outset. We felt for what they were, they were solid. In the case of fins, we ordered very small units for athletes and teams, and because our units are significantly smaller than the Speedos of the world, it's reflected in the price. They have done fine and overall customers are pleased with them, but we don't have plans to massively invest in R&D for new fin styles. By contrast, on our other swim equipment (new kickboard, buoy, paddles, etc), we designed those ourselves in-house 100% with our own CAD and have exclusive production on those styles and own the industrial design. We also actually have a patent on the paddles. So it's been a progression, and we're willing to invest more when we see opportunity to make the product better.
On goggles, we took a similar approach on industrial design progression when we launched that category in 2015. Not knowing if there was demand nor which styles would resonate with consumers (because of different form factor and fit preferences), we initially selected the best open mold products we could source. These were S1, F1, F2, and X1. Apart from the S1, these styles were not in the market.
For the uninitiated, this is how many folks who sell goggles in the swim and tri space operate (buying styles developed by the factories themselves), which makes sense if you have limited capital or limited in-house engineering expertise or just want to be super efficient. Keep in mind, goggle manufacturing is very difficult, so the best factories have gotten ahead by vertically integrating and then doing their own R&D. Every year they invent new styles and then pitch them to brands, just like how raw material suppliers and textile mills like Polartec or Schoeller go ahead and knit or weave their own fabrics on spec for sale, and then brands like Arc'Teryx and North Face and others buy them to make into garments. Some brands develop their own textiles from scratch (we've done it), but sometimes not. In the case of goggles, making the finished good is quite difficult, so factories regularly mock up full goggles for brands to use as inspiration or actual production. Most of it is awful in my opinion, but sometimes there are diamonds in the rough. Once you identify something you want, you can customize from there or just buy as-is. If you customize it, it's yours. If not, then you need to buy enough to offset their R&D and get exclusivity by geography, time, etc. So there are a variety of ways to engage with a goggle factory, and it's not always cut and dry.
In our case, we initially sourced the best open mold goggles we could, because we weren't sure about the market and hadn't yet hired the kick-ass engineering team we have today. After we sourced the styles, we took the extra step of developing custom lens tints that are exclusive to us, because that was value we could add whether we designed the actual mold or not. We did a bunch of field testing and identified tints that better suited a variety of environments in which people train and race. For example, if you look at the ambers and blues and other colors from competitors, you will see that our color story is much more sophisticated. We launched those goggles with our novel SPCTRM story in 2015, providing nine different tints for different light and background use cases, to help people see the buoys faster in open water swimming. This was very well received and encouraged us to invest more in the category. From there we did hire in-house engineering expertise and saw an opportunity to make sighting buoys easier by tilting back the lens and removing as much material from the top of the lens as possible. That concept became the R1. We made that goggle with our own CAD design and custom injection mold that is exclusive to us. We have multiple patents now on that product for its retroscopic lens tilt, and it's done very well in the market.
In terms of who makes what where, we make our goggles in four different factories, so I'm happy to dig further into the styles to help address comments about S1 and F1 and Speedo Vanquisher. The S1 is an open mold product without exclusivity but uses custom lens tints that are exclusive to us. I grew up swimming in Malmsten swedes and did reach out to them, since they white label some swedes for other brands like Speedo. Their units were too high, however, and they don't make a swede that has a bumper on it as far as I can remember, which is why we selected the one we did. Keep in mind, our unit sales on S1 are incredibly low, so our purchasing power is relatively weak, and the economics don't justify making our own two-shot injection mold. In fact our units are so low, we haven't even re-ordered inventory for that style in quite some time and couldn't justify extending our SPCTRM color story completely for that style. At some point we may very well stop selling it. It is our lowest selling goggle by far, as you'd probably expect.
On the F1, although the general form factor is similar to Vanquisher, lots of things are different on that frame and gasket from a Vanquisher. To improve the F1, we changed the gasket design to make it more comfortable and more reliable. We also added multiple new, custom interchangeable nose bridge sizes that are exclusive injection molds we made. That project began with Mario Mola requesting a higher, more comfortable nosebridge and then subsequently was rolled out to all of our customers to help out folks get a better fit. I think we ship 5 or 6 different nose bridge pieces for the F1 now instead of the original three. So in the F1 we took an open mold product and then improved it not just in lens tints but also in the gasket and nosebridge molds. Whether it beats Vanquisher is for you to decide, and YMMV. All good. But we think we've got a compelling product at that form factor.
For folks who like bigger goggles with more field of view, we made the F2 and X1. Those designs were brought to use by two different factories, and again have custom tints and some other customizations to make them our own.
Lastly, the R1 is a custom mold we designed ourselves and is 100% unique to ROKA, both in industrial design and lens tints. We have patents on the goggle and we continue to make it better. For example, we recently upgraded the anti-fog coating process to make it better and more consistent in application, and that process is unique to ROKA. No other brand that makes goggles in that particular factory is currently using our anti-fog process, and that includes bigger brands.
Looking ahead, we have several other goggles in development where we are doing 100% in-house CAD development, and those are being made in a fifth factory that doesn't make goggles for anyone but does make products for Apple, Audi and others. They offer a level of manufacturing sophistication and excellence that doesn't currently exist in any goggle factories, so while it's taking some time, we do think it will be worth it because we're trying to really push the envelope and do some new things.
If anyone wants to try our goggles or gear, we'd encourage you to do so. They have a 30 day moneyback guarantee (even after swimming in them), so best advice if on the fence is give em a shot and see what you think.
Hope that's helpful and clarifies any misconceptions.
Best,
Rob
What a class act. Kudos to Roka for being focused the athlete perspective and experience.
I can't think of any other endurance companies in recent years that have been able to do what Roka has done. It's entered a crowded and mature marketplace and absolutely disrupted it, establishing impressive market share across several categories in the process.
I grew up as a swimmer and naturally had always been brand loyal to Speedo. I took a chance on Roka and bought a new suit two or three years ago to try it out and have never looked back. Great company. Great products.