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Road Tubeless worth the effort
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Are road tubeless worth the extra effort??

Conti Gp5000 w Latex vs Tubeless for example?

Hard work is faster then aero
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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I would read through this thread real quick. I was 100% planning on going the 5000TL on my new disc wheels but I think I'm going to be sticking with the normal 5000 and latex.

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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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not yet, for me anyway. one caveat to that is if you don't mind having a slow training wheelset setup with some very robust tubeless tires. The current line of low crr tubeless tires aren't robust enough to make messing with the sealant worth it. You get a flat that the sealant doesn't fix and you're still going to have to put a tube in there, and deal with the mess.

tubeless for road is kinda a solution looking for a problem. tubes just work, and they're not that big a deal imo.

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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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Not there yet unfortunately.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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Tubes are just so much easier with similar performance.

The only reason I switched to tubeless this year is hopefully better flat protection on some mixed surface rides I'm doing on my roadie.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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My experience with the "fast" tubeless ready tires (Schwalbe Pro One, Spesh Turbo) was not good. The problem is that the sealant just doesn't work very well at higher pressures (and 70-80 psi still counts as high pressure). A lot of punctures either won't seal, or will only seal at too low of a pressure to keep riding with any confidence. It seemed like a lot of what actually seals is the tiny stuff that wouldn't have punctured all the way through a latex tube. And once a tubeless tire punctures, you can't really trust the tire anymore unless you're going to patch it. With tubes you just replace the tube and the tire will usually be fine for many more miles.

I got way more flats running road tubeless than I ever did running fast traditional tires with latex tubes. In the end I realized tubeless was quite a bit of extra trouble for no real benefit. The only way I see it making sense is for really big tires at much lower pressures (eg 32mm+ at < 60psi), like maybe for gravel riding or something. If you care about going fast on decent pavement, stick with latex tubes.

I do still run Corsa Speeds for race day on the time trial bike, but I run them with latex tubes (and sometimes sealant in the tubes).
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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This isn't actually true. You can use a plug, like a "Bacon Strip" or "Dynaplug." Putting a tube in a TL tire is not the first-line fix to a hole. The plugs are actually even faster than changing a tube on a standard clincher. You don't even have to take the wheel off. You just jam the plug in, re-inflate tire and go. Yes, you might have a little bit of sticky latex mess on your calves, but it makes it easier to find the hole, and I'd rather some latex on my cleanly shaven calves (this is key!) than grease all over my hands (which I use to eat).

Any hole that a Dynaplug can't patch is probably so large you'd be equally screwed running tubes unless you happen to race with a $1 bill or MTB patch kit.

I'd say try it out and decide for yourself. I've been running Zipp Tangente Speed TL tires on Zipp ZSWs for the last month or so without a single flat, and I've been kind of deliberately trying to kill them.... deliberately riding through the occasional roadside pile of glass, etc. Not a single flat yet. It's also been SUPER nice training at 75 PSI. The ride is like butter.

Now, I haven't yet seen crr or aero data on the Zipp tires, but am thinking I'll train on them and then switch over to a fresh set of 5000 TL a week or so before my first summer "A" race just to do a few test tides to make sure everything is seated properly.

But I'm still new at this TL thing, so my opinion could change!
Last edited by: wintershade: May 1, 19 15:05
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I did try it and my experience was the same as jsk’s. The low crr tires were so thin that the bacon strip didn’t have enough material to grab onto and create enough friction to hold the plug in place. Once pumped up to normal riding pressure the plug would shoot out like a bullet across my garage.

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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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So there may or may not be a couple of (informed) ProTour teams running ultra low Crr tubeless TT tires with latex tubes in them instead of the full tubeless setup.. easier for everybody, adds some puncture resistance and almost no rolling resistance.

I've been running prototype Vittoria TLR tire for a while now using latex tubes instead of tubeless and find it to be pretty awesome.. as did a handful of spring classics winners.

Josh

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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I have had now two sidewall blow out's on GP5000TL, one in Tucson last week and one yesterday in a downhill corner which resulted in a bad crash.
Last edited by: cbre: May 2, 19 4:25
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cbre] [ In reply to ]
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this is not what I'm hoping to read ! I have 2 GP5000 TL's about to go onto the new race wheels. My thinking was tubeless is less flats and better crr.

tell me more about the sidewall blow out.

Brian
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?

Based on everything I've seen, they don't. The Corsa Speed however is the lowest Crr tire that exists and they don't make it in a tubed clincher version. But the Pista is very close...
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cbre] [ In reply to ]
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cbre wrote:
I have had now two sidewall blow out's on GP5000TL, one in Tucson last week and one yesterday in a downhill corner which resulted in a bad crash.

What rim were the GP5000TLs mounted to? What tire pressure were you running?
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?

Previously TL tires have been higher Crr than regular clinchers. The Corsa Speed TLR being the first big exception here and now the GP5000.. though the TL and regular seem to be about equivalent in Crr when using latex tubes.

There are some prototype TL tires in the ProTour right now which are not yet available to public and have very low Crr with more durability than something like the CorsaSpeed. Running these with latex is just easier for some of the teams than setting up and managing as tubeless.

Longterm, the directionality is clear.. the tire companies are devoting nearly all of their R&D resources toward tubeless, so the tech here is going to just continue to improve, Crr will continue coming down more for this category than for standard clinchers. As we still don't have great high pressure tubeless sealants and as noted, some of the plug solutions don't work well in tires this thin.. we've found latex tubes to be a solid stop gap with known performance, installation and maintenance characteristics.

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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
cartsman wrote:
Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?


Previously TL tires have been higher Crr than regular clinchers. The Corsa Speed TLR being the first big exception here and now the GP5000.. though the TL and regular seem to be about equivalent in Crr when using latex tubes.
So that's not quite what I found. I've consistently found a small CRR penalty for using the TLs. The TLs also have noticeably thicker sidewalls (probably the source of the CRR penalty) which you would *think* would give you better sidewall protection, say on gravel where the sidewalls are more likely to get hit. Finally, the TLs weigh 85g more *each*, so 170g for two tires. So some real tradeoffs there. I think if you use the TLs, you're really doing it for the additional puncture protection, and that's pretty hard to measure/quantify, so we might not know the full extent of it until there's more field experience.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
joshatsilca wrote:
cartsman wrote:
Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?


Previously TL tires have been higher Crr than regular clinchers. The Corsa Speed TLR being the first big exception here and now the GP5000.. though the TL and regular seem to be about equivalent in Crr when using latex tubes.

So that's not quite what I found. I've consistently found a small CRR penalty for using the TLs. The TLs also have noticeably thicker sidewalls (probably the source of the CRR penalty) which you would *think* would give you better sidewall protection, say on gravel where the sidewalls are more likely to get hit. Finally, the TLs weigh 85g more *each*, so 170g for two tires. So some real tradeoffs there. I think if you use the TLs, you're really doing it for the additional puncture protection, and that's pretty hard to measure/quantify, so we might not know the full extent of it until there's more field experience.

Where are you getting that weight "increase". Just a quick look at the Conti GP4000 in 23's @205g vs the GP5000TL @ 200g.....lets just call them even. Tubes vs fluid.......still pretty much an even wash. Not seeing any sort of "weight" penalty. These are just quick listed weights and not actual measured.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
Where are you getting that weight "increase". Just a quick look at the Conti GP4000 in 23's @205g vs the GP5000TL @ 200g.....lets just call them even. Tubes vs fluid.......still pretty much an even wash. Not seeing any sort of "weight" penalty. These are just quick listed weights and not actual measured.
GP5000TL (25mm) is *300g* not 200g. It essentially has a tube built into it. GP5000 (25mm) is 215g.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:

Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?

Some of the previous Schwalbe tubeless removed the puncture protection belt. Automatically lowers crr. Worked well. Had zero tread flats on 5k miles of Ultremo and One tubeless.

Any problems I've had have been with sidewalls and quality control.

The trick is to minimize the increased crr from stiffer sidewalls, more rubber and sealant while maintaining reasonable durability. Still got a ways to go in that respect.
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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To me it sounds like it isn't worth it "YET", ill just go with the gp5000 and latex.

Thanks

Hard work is faster then aero
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
MKirk wrote:

Where are you getting that weight "increase". Just a quick look at the Conti GP4000 in 23's @205g vs the GP5000TL @ 200g.....lets just call them even. Tubes vs fluid.......still pretty much an even wash. Not seeing any sort of "weight" penalty. These are just quick listed weights and not actual measured.

GP5000TL (25mm) is *300g* not 200g. It essentially has a tube built into it. GP5000 (25mm) is 215g.

yup, you are correct.......looked too fast and quoted the regular version
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
cartsman wrote:
Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?


Previously TL tires have been higher Crr than regular clinchers. The Corsa Speed TLR being the first big exception here and now the GP5000.. though the TL and regular seem to be about equivalent in Crr when using latex tubes.

There are some prototype TL tires in the ProTour right now which are not yet available to public and have very low Crr with more durability than something like the CorsaSpeed. Running these with latex is just easier for some of the teams than setting up and managing as tubeless.

Longterm, the directionality is clear.. the tire companies are devoting nearly all of their R&D resources toward tubeless, so the tech here is going to just continue to improve, Crr will continue coming down more for this category than for standard clinchers. As we still don't have great high pressure tubeless sealants and as noted, some of the plug solutions don't work well in tires this thin.. we've found latex tubes to be a solid stop gap with known performance, installation and maintenance characteristics.

Or...possibly the best overall solution for the problem ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
I did try it and my experience was the same as jsk’s. The low crr tires were so thin that the bacon strip didn’t have enough material to grab onto and create enough friction to hold the plug in place. Once pumped up to normal riding pressure the plug would shoot out like a bullet across my garage.

Hmmm...did you not give the plug handle a 1/4 turn twist before pulling it out (assuming Geniune Innovations style plug, not Dynaplug)?

IME, doing that twist results in a "loop" inside the tire that very effectively prevents it from coming out easily...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Interesting insight as always, thank you!

Raises the question though - why should the setup you've described have lower Crr than just running clincher tires and latex tubes? Is there a reason why manufacturers can make a TL tire that has lower Crr than a clincher tire?

Many times, the tire manufacturers will remove any puncture barrier strips on TL tires under the assumption that they are no longer needed since the tires will be run with sealant (which is supposed to take care of minor punctures). I've seen this in both Schwalbe and Challenge tire models. Removing those strips will result in a lower Crr tire than a similar tire constructed of the same casing and tread, but WITH the puncture belts.

That said...throw a latex tube into one of those TL tires and it will have the same Crr as when run tubeless.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless worth the effort [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
cbre wrote:
I have had now two sidewall blow out's on GP5000TL, one in Tucson last week and one yesterday in a downhill corner which resulted in a bad crash.


What rim were the GP5000TLs mounted to? What tire pressure were you running?


The Tucson blow out was Hed jet 4(disc brake) at 70 psi
The Pittsburgh blow out was Knot64(disc brake) at 85 psi
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