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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
OneGoodLeg wrote:
IN. SANE.


I will add stupidly insane. When you have more money then you know what to do with. Just as I think I about seen it all, I get amazed. $10000 bikes are ok compared to this. That is how I comfort myself. :)

Cost of the orthopedic surgeon re-aligning your toes after decades of deforming them in traditional shoes: priceless. (Well, actually more like $20,000).

Actually, the cost of these carbon custom cycling shoes is about the same that an orthotist would charge for a pair of custom molded foot/ankle braces, that are made using similar technology and craftsmanship. So I think the price is fair. The price would come down, if more people would do it and ditch commercially available unhealthy shoes that destroy their feet.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [2011ironorbea] [ In reply to ]
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I think you meant to ask someone who actually has or is having a pair made.

But I think they weigh very little, and you can have them put the cleat mounts wherever you want.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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yes 2011 and back again!!!!
thanks for making my week

Follow me on Twitter @CK21TRHC
I use what I love: ISM, Blue70, Trek, FLO
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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how do u doing a flying mount?

Follow me on Twitter @CK21TRHC
I use what I love: ISM, Blue70, Trek, FLO
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I just click reply on the last post I see, didnt realize that it says which post you clicked the reply on until you said that, thought that only mattered if you hit the quote
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [ck21trhc] [ In reply to ]
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update below: going to have some tri specific Simmons shoes made. design detailed explained below.



Played with that yesterday: with a little practice, I found I could get in to them quicker than my Sworks. Though, I never preferred a "flying" mount with the Sworks, but rather a: run along side the bike, slip one forefoot in, slide over the saddle, slip the other forefoot in, pedal and then get feet totally in, pedal and then tighten BOA's. I always had to be careful of the tongue in the Sworks and the Simmons will take some dexterity using the index finger to pull up the top layer of carbon and the thumb the bottom layer.... if you're looking for super fast shoe entry, these aren't for you! But rather, something like what Ryf is using would be wise, or any tri specific shoe. I do a lot of road riding, 70.3 and I may consider not using the Simmons for the collegiate season I'm thinking of doing (doctoral student); it depends on how good I get with them.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Mar 7, 16 18:57
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [2011ironorbea] [ In reply to ]
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They are stupid light, but honestly, not much lighter than the very light 2015 Sworks road. They have much lower stack height (see previous photos). I can wear cycling socks and will do so in training and road races, barefoot for tri's. I have a thin felt liner glued in on top of the carbon sole. These custom shoes would be ideal for someone with foot abnormalities. I have no abnormalities, but I do get nerve pain that affects my running when I'm putting in long rides, especially when I'm mixing long climbs where the torque is higher on my feet. I wear Altra run shoes and can't go back to narrow toe box shoes.

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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [2011ironorbea] [ In reply to ]
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I did choose where to put the cleat. Though, the aluminum plate on the sole has two mounting positions and provides lots of adjustment. Visually, it looks like the cleats on my Simmons are further forward than my Sworks, but when I put them on, I feel the cleat pressure under my metatarsals and nerves in the Sworks, but behind my metatarsals with the Simmons and with little to no flex in the sole compared to the Sworks: there are no hot spots or nerve pressure. I agree that they are expensive, but I found them worth it, just as I found my Dash saddle paired with Desoto 400mile bibs worth it, and a bike fit that, while having substantial saddle to bar drop, leaves my hands relatively unweighted, worth it: comfort for me equals more and better riding.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Jan 28, 16 11:48
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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DrTriKat wrote:
atasic wrote:
OneGoodLeg wrote:
IN. SANE.


I will add stupidly insane. When you have more money then you know what to do with. Just as I think I about seen it all, I get amazed. $10000 bikes are ok compared to this. That is how I comfort myself. :)


Cost of the orthopedic surgeon re-aligning your toes after decades of deforming them in traditional shoes: priceless. (Well, actually more like $20,000).

Actually, the cost of these carbon custom cycling shoes is about the same that an orthotist would charge for a pair of custom molded foot/ankle braces, that are made using similar technology and craftsmanship. So I think the price is fair. The price would come down, if more people would do it and ditch commercially available unhealthy shoes that destroy their feet.

I just spent $400 for some orthotics (they are a bit "special") but overall not that more than most orthotics. The advantage of orthotics, is that they can be moved from shoe to shoe. The disadvantage is that orthotics do not control the shape of the sides and top of the shoe (if you really need all that and in my case I may). I am looking at getting some EE Bont heat moldable and slide my orthotics in though. This total custom path might be the next option.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [ck21trhc] [ In reply to ]
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ck21trhc wrote:
how do u doing a flying mount?

Take about 7 extra seconds in T1 to put your shoes on, run out. After the mount line you throw a leg over, clip in, and go.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [salesguy] [ In reply to ]
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salesguy wrote:
Thanks for posting this. I now know what my next splurge will be. Amazing.

For those that know feet really well, how would a shoe like this help with a bone spur/bunion on the top of the foot?

Now how am I supposed to go put on my normal $300 shoes and ride having just read up on these. It's almost not worth it.

When Dave makes a cast of your foot, and can put some extra space around a bunion or bone spur, and that should remove all of the pressure from that area. Many speed skaters get weird bumps on their feet from their other skates, and Dave is able to make a custom that takes the pressure off those areas, and eventually (in the case of the speed skater bump, but I'm not sure on bone spurs/bunions) they go away completely in most cases a few months after you fix the problem.

I still have the same shoes from the time I originally made this thread. I've crashed them a few times, wear them in mud and gravel, cold weather or hot weather, rain, snow, etc and they barely have any signs of wear. I have no doubt that these will last me a decade with daily use. My teammates, who I don't think are as hard on equipment as me, have to buy new shoes every year. In the long run, I'm on a better performing shoe for the same (or less) cost.
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Post deleted by milesthedog [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: milesthedog: Jan 30, 16 7:21
Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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The above Simmons single shoe is a size 10.5 US/43 EU. The shimano cleats and hardware weight 36g for each shoe, so each of my Simmoms shoes are 220g. Sxvegan's comments on the durability of his shoes is great to hear.

The below image is for an Sworks size 42 EU without cleats.



Bont Vaypors in 42EU are 277g (one shoe) without cleats, and Giro Prologut SLX in 42EU are 199g (one shoe) without cleats.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Jan 30, 16 9:56
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
DrTriKat wrote:
atasic wrote:
OneGoodLeg wrote:
IN. SANE.


I will add stupidly insane. When you have more money then you know what to do with. Just as I think I about seen it all, I get amazed. $10000 bikes are ok compared to this. That is how I comfort myself. :)


Cost of the orthopedic surgeon re-aligning your toes after decades of deforming them in traditional shoes: priceless. (Well, actually more like $20,000).

Actually, the cost of these carbon custom cycling shoes is about the same that an orthotist would charge for a pair of custom molded foot/ankle braces, that are made using similar technology and craftsmanship. So I think the price is fair. The price would come down, if more people would do it and ditch commercially available unhealthy shoes that destroy their feet.


I just spent $400 for some orthotics (they are a bit "special") but overall not that more than most orthotics. The advantage of orthotics, is that they can be moved from shoe to shoe. The disadvantage is that orthotics do not control the shape of the sides and top of the shoe (if you really need all that and in my case I may). I am looking at getting some EE Bont heat moldable and slide my orthotics in though. This total custom path might be the next option.

I was thinking about fully custom molded orthoses, which require either a plaster cast, or a laser cast and possibly additional pressure mapping of the individuals foot/ankle/leg, and then custom fabrication out of plastic, fiberglass, or carbon fiber, and then custom fitting by an orthotist.

Bonts are nice if you don't my the extreme amounts of toe spring they all seem to have (BTW I have found that their sizing tool ends you up with a shoe that is at least 1/2 size too small). I have now tried 3 models of Bonts and they just don't feel right.

I am currently riding in a hacked pair of Northwaves (a full size bigger than my normal size) that are extremely ill fitting and the tall toe box lets my foot wonder around and lose tons of power (while still causing a little sideways pressure that I don't like) My older Northwaves were more "foot" shaped, but are a little too narrow and cause foot numbness after about 40 minutes.

For the money I have spent trying to find a pair of commercially available cycling shoes that 1. don't destroy my toes 2. make it possible to run on my feet afterwards and 3. don't cause my foot to go numb, I could have had at least 2 pairs of custom shoes made.....

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a note I sent to a friend who had some questions; the response also provides an update on my Simmons shoes experience:

I tried Bonts, but it is the lowers being moldable that really counts. For $1k, you can get full custom Bonts, but it is a self mold. I had Dave Simmons do my mold as I'm not trained in that regard. Also, what separates the Simmons, to me, is the cleat mount. Bonts have cleat bolt holes that go all the way through the carbon sole, increasing the likelihood of the rider developing hot spots due to these bolts. Leonard Zinn has written that this is the primary cause of hot spots in cycling shoes. My experience with these Simmons is that the weight is so evenly dispersed, that I just forget about my feet, even up HC and Cat 1 climbs. That's huge for me

Big thing to note is that they are durable. I'll have this for 10+ years. the price is easily justified and the ride quality is incomparable; it's like going from riding on flat pedals with sneakers to clip-ins with Swork shoes: that big of a difference, and to think that compared to the Simmons, S-works feel like they're riddled with pressure points. I will say that the Lake heat-moldable insert does improve a stock shoe by quite a bit and it's only $100.

Again, Simmons aren't super tri friendly, but I do most of my training on the road and having gotten use to getting into Sworks in tri races, I'll be able to get into the Simmons with only a tad bit more dexterity required.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Feb 7, 16 15:25
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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DrTriKat wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
DrTriKat wrote:
atasic wrote:
OneGoodLeg wrote:
IN. SANE.


I will add stupidly insane. When you have more money then you know what to do with. Just as I think I about seen it all, I get amazed. $10000 bikes are ok compared to this. That is how I comfort myself. :)


Cost of the orthopedic surgeon re-aligning your toes after decades of deforming them in traditional shoes: priceless. (Well, actually more like $20,000).

Actually, the cost of these carbon custom cycling shoes is about the same that an orthotist would charge for a pair of custom molded foot/ankle braces, that are made using similar technology and craftsmanship. So I think the price is fair. The price would come down, if more people would do it and ditch commercially available unhealthy shoes that destroy their feet.


I just spent $400 for some orthotics (they are a bit "special") but overall not that more than most orthotics. The advantage of orthotics, is that they can be moved from shoe to shoe. The disadvantage is that orthotics do not control the shape of the sides and top of the shoe (if you really need all that and in my case I may). I am looking at getting some EE Bont heat moldable and slide my orthotics in though. This total custom path might be the next option.


I was thinking about fully custom molded orthoses, which require either a plaster cast, or a laser cast and possibly additional pressure mapping of the individuals foot/ankle/leg, and then custom fabrication out of plastic, fiberglass, or carbon fiber, and then custom fitting by an orthotist.

Bonts are nice if you don't my the extreme amounts of toe spring they all seem to have (BTW I have found that their sizing tool ends you up with a shoe that is at least 1/2 size too small). I have now tried 3 models of Bonts and they just don't feel right.

I am currently riding in a hacked pair of Northwaves (a full size bigger than my normal size) that are extremely ill fitting and the tall toe box lets my foot wonder around and lose tons of power (while still causing a little sideways pressure that I don't like) My older Northwaves were more "foot" shaped, but are a little too narrow and cause foot numbness after about 40 minutes.

For the money I have spent trying to find a pair of commercially available cycling shoes that 1. don't destroy my toes 2. make it possible to run on my feet afterwards and 3. don't cause my foot to go numb, I could have had at least 2 pairs of custom shoes made.....

One point to note. You lose close to zero power in slightly larger shoes with your feet floating around a bit vs snug fitting shoes. I put this to the test with duathlon pedals in running shoes vs a variety of Specialized and Louis Garneau models and no shoes had an impact on my power. Pretty well any shoe you'll generate the same amount of power, it's just a question of comfort.

If I was a pursuit rider in the Olympics or a sprinter in a grand tour, then OK, or even doing a jump in my local criterium. But for tris/steady state riding, you're better off going with a slightly bigger shoe with a custom orthotic.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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My power has not increased because of my shoes (unfortunately!). But, my comfort is at a level I did not think was possible for a cycling shoe. My knee alignment is spot on... with no wedges. I do think I will benefit from being able to ride better later into rides/races when hot spots in previous shoes surely reduced the power I was producing (it hurt to put out too much torque!). I know to some folks this may sound ludicrous, but after riding in these shoes, I feel $1.9k is a deal. I guess I see it as, if you're riding a P5, R5, Sworks frame, a C'dale Evo or Black Inc., Madone or Speed Concept, or Felt IA, Scott Plasma.... or if you own a power meter, these shoes are right in line. I feel it's just logical.... But I understand why folks would balk at the price: it's unorthodox.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Mar 7, 16 19:02
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
My power has not increased because of my shoes (unfortunately!). But, my comfort is at a level I did not think was possible for a cycling shoe. My knee alignment is spot on... with no wedges. I do think I will benefit from being able to ride better later into rides/races when hot spots in previous shoes surely reduced the power I was producing (it hurt to put out too much torque!). I know to some folks this may sound ludicrous, but after riding in these shoes, I feel $1.9k is a deal. I guess I see it as, if you're riding a P5, R5, Sworks frame, a C'dale Evo or Black Inc., Madone or Speed Concept, or Felt IA, Scott Plasma.... or if you own a power meter, these shoes are right in line. I feel it's just logical.... But I understand why folks would balk at the price: it's unorthodox.

OK, here's more of a strategic business rant that relates to Simmons, other companies, and price:

I would love to see the companies Dash, AX-Lightness, THM, EE and Simmons Racing (shoes) under one umbrella company. Dash and AX would collaborate on wheels (wide, tubeless, zipp-nsw-quality braking surface) and Dash would take over all wheels and saddle responsibilites. AX would only focus on frames (no brakes or components). THM would drop their brakes and only focus on cranks, forks, seatposts and would take over AX's stems and handlebars. EE would provide brakes. Simmons would work with THM, AX and Dash to create a production line for his full custom Mojo shoes. I would also like to see Simmons work with Dash to create a new product: custom saddles created from personal molds; I've never seen this done, but I've dropped Dave Simmons an email about giving this idea a go (Dash never responded to an inquiry I made over a year ago). I've been on a Dash tri.7 on my road bike for 5 years and love it, but after using the Simmons shoes and feeling like the shoes have disappeared from under me allowing me to forget about my feet with the weight distributed evenly across my whole foot even up HC climbs, my standards for comfort have been raised, and I would like to see this standards for comfort carried over to my saddle.

AX has already brought their frame prices down to the level of C'dale Black Inc, S-works and less than the new Madone, so a bit more collaboration on production could bring prices down a tad bit more, allowing these products to retain their niche status while removing the possible negative stigma associated with products that live within the weight-weenie domain. And, more importantly, this group would mimic SRAM when it was just a burgeoning parent company in the late 90's: that move by SRAM allowed them to market to a wider audience and move away from being this niche chain company that also made twist shift better than Grip Shift (for mountain bikes). Would TriRig fit neatly under this umbrella? They would bring pedals and aerobars. I like Nick's brakes, but the dual post EE with the aero cover is areo, provides Duraace quality braking, and is stupid light. That's hard to beat.

I agree with your points that while power may not increse if comfort does over a race, it is worth it and as a result power COULD also increase later due to lack of hot spots. As a minimum, if compensation due to hot spots etc declines then long term this is a good investment. I can really see the value of these in speed skating and also if an XC ski boot could be made in this manner (although FIS would ban it because all XC ski boots used in competition have to be commercially available...at least that was the rule a few years back). In XC ski and speed skating, where you have to dynamically balance, this would have a really big advantage. Less so in cycling, but it still seems like a worthwhile place to spend money. Money on contact points is never really a waste...shoes, pedals, bars, saddles.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Simmons primary business is in speed skating (roller blade style). I actually met up with him at a speed skating competition to have my feet molded and I'd say 70% of the kids there were in Simmons shoes, a lot of those using a stock last.

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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
... where you have to dynamically balance, this would have a really big advantage. Less so in cycling, but it still seems like a worthwhile place to spend money. Money on contact points is never really a waste...shoes, pedals, bars, saddles.

I have been thinking about why more professional cyclists don't have custom shoes, seems Hansen is the only one (check out Hanseeno....)? Thing is, when you have had your feet mold into traditional cycling footwear from an early age, and cycling is the only thing you do, it may not matter much. For triathletes who also run, I can no longer accept the idea of having my toes squished and pointed up and my foot be numb.

As far as wearing larger size cycling shoes, the ability to adjust the fasteners for a smaller foot (I know they don't have to be tight, but just so your foot is not "swimming" inside), and the placement of the cleat mounts relatively farther forward the larger the shoe, becomes a limiting factor. I am currently in a shoe 1 size larger, and I cannot imagine going any larger because of those 2 issues.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I have a Simmons custom saddle on the way. It's a first iteration. It is made of Kevlar/Graphite and fits right over my Dash Tri.7 with the alterations I requested. I've been on the Tri.7 since 2011 and I love it, but I need some changes. So, I'll ride this saddle cover and send feedback. He has a mold back at his place and we'll keep tweaking it and when I'm set, Dave will cut the rails off of a Dash Strike I sent him (the Strike's narrow front caused the same issues as the front of a traditional saddle). He'll then create a carbon upper and epoxy some thick leather over it with no foam, just thick leather.


Here's a video of the process: https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

Next will be a set of tri shoes. The road shoes are awesome, but not good for quick transitions. See the image below. There are two overlapping layers of carbon across the top of the shoe. The thought is to remove the majority of the under layer of carbon and just have the upper layer of carbon. This upper level of carbon would have a horizontal cut just before the toes of the shoe, so the top layer can pull completely to the side. The carbon of this top layer will be oriented so that the resting position of this carbon top layer is sprung open, leaving the inside of the shoe easy to slide into. A Boa closure will be used to pull the 'sprung' top layer down over my foot once I've gotten my foot into the shoes.




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Last edited by: milesthedog: Mar 7, 16 19:04
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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 I know nothing about intellectual property, but it seems super un-chill to literally use another company's product as a mold, make some tweaks, and then sell it for a shitton of money.

And my thought on the custom shoes is they sound fantastic. But if your race is short enough that five seconds getting in and out of them is going to change your spot on the podium, I would think you could find some off-the-shelf tri shoes that would get the job done.

...Says the jealous hater who rides a regular old Dash saddle and some crappy run-of-the-mill S-works road shoes.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Review of my custom Simmons Racing cycling shoes [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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one off saddle, not production. And, the one-off is really just a combo of the Dash Tri.7 (length and material - stiff carbon; ISM plastic saddles sag), ISM Attack (channel and front - channel prevents chamois getting wedged into the Dash opening, which causes discomfort and seriously limits shorts options) and ISM Podium (wider for the tailbones - both the Tri.7 and the Attack are a bit too narrow for my sitbones. The Dash Strike had too much material for the sitbone 'wings' and the 'wings' were too convexed). The saddle is after-market. Now, if it was put into production, I would agree with you, but Dave Simmons doesn't make production products.

As for the shoes, good point. Here's the difference: The coordination needed to get into the road shoe with one hand with the shoes attached to the pedals is a bit too much, especially since the heel is really tight and as as stiff as can be. I have to give myself 5sec for each shoe and preferably sitting on in a chair/bench. The other option is to put them on and run in them to mount the bike... yeah right, I'm not running in $2k shoes! Why not just use stock shoes? because if I'm doing 70.3's, I want the comfort and I want to use the same basic shoe design that I'm doing all of my training in, otherwise, I'll be changing my saddle height to adjust for the super low stack height of the shoes. Yes, it's a bit ridiculous, I agree, but that's the nature of after-market purchases in general.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Mar 7, 16 18:48
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