Return to "round" frame tubes....

Apr 14, 03 6:45

Post #1 of 20 (3440 views)

Something of interest I've noticed recently. I wonder what this forum thinks about it. Several top pros seem to have "returned" to the traditional round frame tube bikes. I'm not trying to discuss 78 vs. 73 seat tubes angle, but as an example, both Beth Zinkand and Andrea Fisher are now riding "non-aero" downtube bikes. The first pro that most people took notice of this was Hellrigel last year at Kona. Many folks attributed this to the "Euro" attitude towards more traditional cycling, but my examples are people from Texas and California. Has the benefits of aero downtubes been exaggrated too much over the last few years? I'm seeing pros that can ride a number of bikes that are choosing round tubes. Even QR put out the Zero Gravity with round tubes although it is marketed as a tri and road bike. I would think the pro triathletes, ride at speeds that would actually see the benefit of aero tubing and would go with that. Interesting if nothing else.

- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 6:52

Post #2 of 20 (3431 views)

don't forget lindquist whupping a$$ on her ....gasp, STEEL round tube ride. how can this possibly be ???

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 6:59

Post #3 of 20 (3423 views)

Tim, I was wondering how long it would take you to read and reply to that subject :) I guessed 10 min, but you're a little faster. But that's another VERY significant example of my question.

- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 7:10

Post #4 of 20 (3414 views)

Could it be that, heavens-to-Betsy, it's the RIDER not the RIDE???!!!

I shudder to think of the ramifications...

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 7:31

Post #5 of 20 (3387 views)

We're told Hellreigel went to round tubes because they are less susceptible to cross winds. This would make sense to me when I look at how wide my P2K tubes are from the side.

Personally I've always liked both the ride quality of and aesthetics of round steel tubes. Now all they've got to do is bring back lugs.

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 9:17

Post #6 of 20 (3315 views)

I am sure that the real aero-guru's know more about this than I do, but from what I have seen/read/heard, the actual contribution to performance of the aero-frames even the ones that are really aero( and many are faux-aero) is minimal. Wheels and body positioning are the significant contributors to how areodynamic a bike AND rider are.

What do I gather from this? Spend money on good wheels and spend the time ( and in some cases money) on perfecting the most aerodynamic postion you can obtain on your bike while still optimizing power in a comfortable position.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 9:32

Post #7 of 20 (3301 views)

I got this from the slowtwitch technical section. It was written by J. Cobb. To me it looks like as long as the round tube has a fairly small diameter, it will be pretty aero. I think that the flat tubes will yield slightly better than small diameter round tube, but both will be way better than a oversized round tube bike.

"The bigger picture here is that round tubing is not ideal, big round tubing is just plain slow, and such bikes shouldn't have the word aero attached to them anywhere. There are some exceptions. We've tested bikes with smaller round tubes and with round seat tubes that curved in front of the rear wheel. Those bikes tested very nicely. But the testing I've just completed at least convinces me that, all other things being equal, a flatter downtube of some sort is the better way to go."

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 10:05

Post #8 of 20 (3266 views)

Becouse that company pays them the most!

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [denewone] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 13:04

Post #9 of 20 (3187 views)

Certainly, a true aero down tube gives some time advantage over not-as-aero tubes...whatever their shape. Is it significant? Only if you lose a place in a race that you care about by a few seconds. Of course, the engine, the body position, efficiency, nutrition, hydration, and pure luck all factor into the formula, too. If I were picking between two bikes that were identical except for the downtube (as long as the ride quality was equal, too), I'd go aero. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it too much...

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Post deleted by huret5steel [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 17:52

Post #10 of 20 (3088 views)

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [chris in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 17:56

Post #11 of 20 (3086 views)

so's i's lustin at the seven cycles website and read thier tech data on why they only use round tubes. pretty dang convincing. i thought.

www.sevencycles.com

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [G Cottrell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 18:10

Post #12 of 20 (3078 views)

lindquist's ride is made of true temper S3 steel. richard schwinn himself told me, at a mt bike race almost exactly a year ago - " that stuff is the shit" (paraphrasing.....). anyway - dude knows what in the hell he is talking about. or, dig the new ads for the fine tubes in v-news with steve garn from brew, or mr kelly of kelly bikes. cool. brew goes way back with tri-bikes, and mr schwinn's company - waterford - will build you one just like barb's, if you ask. on board such a steed there is little doubt you would ride with the Chorus Of Heaven every day. airfoil airschmoil. :)

Last edited by: t-t-n: Apr 14, 03 18:14

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 18:20

Post #13 of 20 (3069 views)

I always thought that time trials were won by four things: 1)light, aero front wheels 2)a disc wheel 3) aero bars 4) a rider who can go like hell!

I always liked the round seat tube that curved around the rear tire- who knows if it worked, but it did look cool.

The best steel I've ridden is Reynolds 853. It is heavenly. I want to see if my pal will make me a bike out of the S3 like he talks about.

Call me Big Dick

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [G Cottrell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 14, 03 18:37

Post #14 of 20 (3060 views)

well g cotrell that sounds like a fine plan to me ! the S3 in theory surpasses the 853. ox plat would be the equivalent material there from true temper. i have bikes made of both ox plat and 853 and you will get no argument from me on which is better. :) i would like to join you in testing an S3, just in the name of science.

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Apr 15, 03 8:59

Post #15 of 20 (2944 views)

In Reply To:

well g cotrell that sounds like a fine plan to me ! the S3 in theory surpasses the 853. ox plat would be the equivalent material there from true temper. i have bikes made of both ox plat and 853 and you will get no argument from me on which is better. :) i would like to join you in testing an S3, just in the name of science.

My Holland is made of slightly oversized Tange Prestige, circa 1991. When I bent the top tube last summer in an unfortunate roof-rack incident, I pretty much made up my mind to switch to a Ti frame. I had the local shop strip down my frame for me.

On a hunch, I had them weigh it against a standard-style Litespeed frame (I forget which model, but it was not the Ultimate). My steel bike was lighter by 2 oz than the Litespeed in the same size!

I had Bill Holland fix my top tube, and I still ride that bike -- and I think I always will.

Steel is real!

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [Julian] [ In reply to ]

Apr 15, 03 16:22

Post #16 of 20 (2841 views)

Has anyone considered the fact that Hellriegel is riding round tubes because he is getting paid to!!! Anyway, its Hellriegel, you can put him in a MTB and he will still kick ass.

The argument about Lindquist riding round frames doesn't make sense since all she does is draft legal racing so what does it matter.

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [KingK] [ In reply to ]

Apr 15, 03 17:24

Post #17 of 20 (2817 views)

Actually, Barb Lindquist often rides by herself in front so aero does matter to her. I saw her race in Sydney and she did the entire cycling leg with no draft.

Andrew Inkpen

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [KingK] [ In reply to ]

Apr 15, 03 17:40

Post #18 of 20 (2806 views)

As Lindquist ends up pulling the lead pack for most of the bike leg, her races turn into something very similar to non drafting events.

Furthermore, she ended up winning the 2001 edition of Wildflower. To make matter worse, the second place woman (Gibbs) was also riding a round tubed blue bike, apparently made by Zoot. :)

Accordingly, it seems that your first paragraph contradicts your second.

Have you ever considered that some riders actually end up riding aero frames because they are getting paid for doing so?

Dre'

Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [Julian] [ In reply to ]

Apr 15, 03 18:24

Post #19 of 20 (2792 views)

"My Holland is made of slightly oversized Tange Prestige... I still ride that bike -- and I think I always will.....Steel is real! "

I have a mid 80's Miele made of Ishawata 022 quadruple butted. I love that bike. So much so that I'm upgrading and repainting it professionally next winter.

I'll give up tri a long time before giving up roadie riding. When that day comes, I'll sell all my tri-geek stuff on ebay and get a custom steel like a Richard Sachs or something equivalent that will serve as my rest of my life bike.

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Re: Return to "round" frame tubes.... [KingK] [ In reply to ]

Apr 16, 03 6:02

Post #20 of 20 (2731 views)

He's getting paid to ride for Cannondale. I would be willing to bet that he could choose any bike (including custom-made) that they have in their line up. They have some top notch aero bikes (MS series) which is why I orignally mentioned my question about his and other pros choice of round tubes. I seriously doubt Cannondale dictated that he had to ride a round tube bike, with drop bars, the same time they came out with the Ironman model bikes.

- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

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