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Refund at IMNA - Answer (N.1)
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A quick letter to Paula (who actually answers emails whereas Melody doesn't really)...explaining the refund/waiting list etc thing that I talked about in the props to IMNA thread. If we don't ask for things to move, it will not happen.

Something that would go a long way for many and would really help the image of IMNA, specially for those that have seen the sport evolves over the last 10 years or so...

It will probably be discarded, but, if you don't ask, you won't get anything....

Hi Paula,

something we've been discussing for a while now in the triathlon community but the question is this: why not have a waiting list (for AGers of course...I know you only deal with elites, but usually Melody doesn't answer to that stuff, so maybe you can forward that email to Graham) for Ironman races in North America?

So the deal is this. Right now, after 2-3 days, a race is full. Some people cannot commit a year in advance, quite a few will get injured training for an IM, others may have work commitments etc. So, AGers are asked to drop $450 a year in advance for a year they are not 100% sure to do. However, very few do withdraw from the race, maybe 10% or so. The other point is that if you withdraw, you get a rather miserable $150 back. Consdering most of this is done online, it really isn't justified. I understand that IMNA is a business, and businesses are here to make money. However, triathletes are the customers of this business and it is possible to implement a waiting list, have real refunds, make sure IMNA still gets at least the same benefits and make sure that triathletes do get something more substantial should something prevent them from racing. Technically, it doesn't guarante that IMNA makes more, but IMNA would not get less for sure, and it would certainly do a lot for its image.

Here is a suggestion:
1. when the race is full, start a waiting list
2. Allow withdrawal from a race up to 3 months before an IM with a $350 refund if you can't race, $100 for admin fees
3. from the moment the race is full up to 3 months out, when someone withdraw, the top of the waiting list get the spot.
4. it's not reasonable to have anyone enter later than 3 months out so close entries definitely at this time
5. from 3 months out to 6 weeks out, withdrawal with $150 back (as is the case now).

Now the waiting list thing is really not an overhead for IMNA. It really is a one day work thing. You simply write (or ask someone
to write) a little code that creates the starting list and replaces withdrawals with people from the start list, starting at the top.
(I do research and teach computer science, and I am fairly sure most beginning programmers wouldn't struggle too much with
writing something this simple).

There. Here is the idea. There are probably a few things here and there I haven't thought about, but the conclusion is that IMNA would still make at least the same benefit, this would be a decision most welcome by a huge part of the triathlon population, so, it is really a win-win situation.

Feel free to forward the email to Graham Fraser, or whoever might be interested.

cheers,

Francois
Last edited by: Francois: Mar 14, 06 15:03
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for taking the initiative Francois. I'll be interested to read any response.

-C

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Francois,



Thank you for your support of IMNA events. We have read your request and all agree that you are nuts. If you want in a race that has closed out "in 2-3 days" then you had better train and get a spot at one of our over priced 70.3 races - where selling our race, and tee-shirts allong with pleasing sponsors far out weighs the actual race, and/or distance standards of IronMan and Half IronMan races around the world. We would have sent your ideas to Graham but he has been busy with the purchase of a new Bently at his new Challet in the mountains.

Thank you again for your support...DEATH TO USAT!!!!! (in a Jihaad voice)

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I like it a lot. Include (someone should) a provision for those that are training hard and end up injured. Not just an overuse injury. I was injured 2 months from an IM last year (IMNA event). In fact, I was hurt while bike training. Not my fault, spent 3 weeks in the hospital. Got a whopping $150 dollar refund. Whoopee! It kind of stinks now that I think about it. With all the deductibles I have had to pay the extra loot would of been handy. Heck, I could still use it because I am still paying for stuff related to the accident.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Mac] [ In reply to ]
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Include (someone should) a provision for those that are training hard and end up injured.

I feel for you but I think this is opening up a can of worms. Everyone who decides they want to back out will just have their doctor friend/brother-in-law/whatever write them a note saying they can't race.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I've thought about this too. I'm sure that if people could "easily" withdraw and get most of their money back there would be many people signing up for several races just to keep their options open. They'd figure they could decide later which races they really wanted to do. A $100 penalty is not that big of deal for many people. I'm advocating for one policy or another; I just think this would be an unintended consequence of your proposal.
Last edited by: triwz: Mar 14, 06 6:07
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Re: Refund at IMNA [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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IMNA should sell insurance just like a travel company does. If you buy a $4500 bike trip to the Tour de France in the summer you can get travel / cancellation insurance for about $260. If you get injured or someone in your family gets injured and you can't go, you can claim the cost of the trip (and flights if you buy insurance to cover that as well) from the insurance company.

it works pretty well and even covers you for up to $25,000 in medical usually. I don't imagine it would be hard for IMNA to include this in the costs (if interested) and i'm sure the insurance people would be willing to create an IMNA policy.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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$100 for doing a lot of nothing? if I were IMNA I'd jump on that bandwagon.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [acronym] [ In reply to ]
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They get a lot more than $100 for doing nothing as their policy is now.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [acronym] [ In reply to ]
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I like the insurance "option" idea. It should not be more than a few bucks ya' think?
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Mac] [ In reply to ]
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Usually travel insurance is about 5% of the cost of the trip. The minimum is sometimes $50, but not always. i would pay a $50 premium in order to get a full refund if i HAD to cancel.

Plus the way travel insurance works is the travel agency or tour operator gets about 30% of the revenue so here's yet another way for IMNA to get some of our money!
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Just say no to IMNA. :) I agree 100% with you Francois on this one. They are missing the boat big time on this.

Come do Silverman with me this year and leave IMNA behind. I bet even if you don't finish, you will still beat me. ;)
Mark
Last edited by: Markus Mucus: Mar 14, 06 6:18
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Terry in MN] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
They get a lot more than $100 for doing nothing as their policy is now.


Bingo!



Haven't we discussed before how the IMNA races intentionally overbook, counting on a certain percentage of withdrawals and no-shows? Implementing the waiting list and larger refund policy is simply more (albeit slightly) work for no gain, and possibly a loss, of revenue. As things stand now they sell out a year in advance. So, what is their motivation to do this? Maybe when the "fad" loses some of it's luster and they aren't filling their races, and people aren't paying thousands of dollars for "charity" slots to enter already full races - maybe then IMNA will reconsider their refund policy. But until then I wouldn't hold my breath...

__________________________________________________
Happy trails,
Chris
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Yours is a solution in search of a problem, from the perspective of IMNA. They have no problem with their "image". Most IMNA participants don't have an issue with IMNA entrance requirements, as evidenced by the very fact that these races sell out instantly. IMNA's policy works just fine for them and for the vast numbers of people who do those races; only a small number of vocal critics found on forums like this one have an issue with the policies of IMNA. Your suggestions will only impart further overhead (albeit small), plus lost profits. There is exactly zero reason for them to change.

When their races stop filling instantly, they may see a need to change. Until then, no.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Refund at IMNA [tricyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ahh the French and their naďveté...
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois, they may well take your recommendation with a few modificatins, ie, $150 refund policy stands as is, athlete pays $100 non refundable just to get on the waiting list and if they have the luck and privelege of getting into the race, they pay the full $450, no credit for waiting list fee.

and people would still eat it up...

http://www.PatGriskusTri.com USAT Certified Race Director
2024 Races: USAT State of CT Age Group Championship/State of CT HS Champs/ CT Club Championship - Sat June 15th (Oly/Du/Sprint) Hopkins Vineyard Tri at Lake Waramaug Saturday July 13th http://www.HopkinsVineyardTri.com
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Francois for doing this. I would hope IMNA would adopt this policy but in doing the math IMNA would only generate about $10K in additional revenue from this which may not justify it to them.

For example keeping the numbers round say 2,000. Under the present system IMNA generates $900K in race fees (2000x$450).

Under a proposed refund less $100. Assume about a 5% attrition rate with 2000 people in the race. Initially IMNA generates $900K, then refunds (100x$350), then gains another (100x$450) or nets $910K. I do not think the incremental $10K in revenue is enough for IMNA to initiate the change from a purely economic standpoint. Nevermind the adminstrative nightmares, and the potential for people signing up for multiple races and planning on withdrawing. With the inelastic demand for races they are not incentized in the short term to change the policy. You could improve the return by making the replacement entries $550, but I am still not sure if $20K would be worth it to them short term.

From a customer service and long term growth plan, I really think it would be in their best interest to initiate the policy, but similar to Melody's responsiveness that I experienced as well, it does not seem that IMNA is overly concerned with developing world class customer service.

Peace,

RF
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Re: Refund at IMNA [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]

When their races stop filling instantly, they may see a need to change. Until then, no.[/reply]

Yeah heaven forbid they do something in the area of customer service.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Ah the Americans and their 'it's ok, I'll just pay' attitude...

Cidewar: funny you mention the insurance. I talked about the letter on a french tri forum.
This is exactly what Quelle Challenge does now.
Maybe it's an even better option.
Last edited by: Francois: Mar 14, 06 7:11
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Logic?? Logic???? You are proposing logic both to IMNA and on this forum??? Clearly you have lost your mind mate:) If rides like Seattle Portland (7000) entrants can have a substitution policy surely an IM with a measly 2500 athletes can get it right!

http://www.endurancesports.ca
Coaching and Training Camps

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Re: Refund at IMNA [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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you forgot to add those INFIDELS on the end of death to USAT. ^^

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"The aspect of sport that you learn is that you have your good times and your bad times, but you share it with great people." - George Gregan

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Re: Refund at IMNA [tricyclist] [ In reply to ]
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The successful companies have always implemented changes, before things turn sour for them....

So, before people get realy pissed at their practices, they should really consider some changes to make it better for their customers.
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Outstanding effort -

I'm ready to race tomorrow if a spot opens up. Can I be 1st on the waiting list?



Francois - perhaps you could shed some light on the taboo subject of Pro IMNA policies. How far in advance? Is the field limited? Costs? Refund fees, etc?
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Re: Refund at IMNA [Diesel] [ In reply to ]
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Usually they ask that you sign no later than 4 weeks ahead. But the only race where they refused people was Florida.
Costs: depends who you are.
Refund fees: depends who you are.

Maybe you could follow up and email them..tell them that the code really IS simple. Geee...it's probably only reuse stuff. probably written somewhere already
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