Thats great that the numbers are growing for the race, sounds like some drama for sure. Maybe you could clue them in on the fact that virtually every race that gives out prize money, makes the folks going for it to start all in the same wave. It is the only fair way to race for cash prizes, head to head..

Our very own Zenmaster28 won the aquabike overall too.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Well....actually.....they do have the option to all start in the same wave...if they choose to race age group that is their choice....

I can see why your occupation is listed as it is in your profile! I guess assuming goes along with that :-)

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

Well....actually.....they do have the option to all start in the same wave...if they choose to race age group that is their choice....




It shouldn't be an option, just like every other race with prize money..Race for the money, start in the first wave, see how easy that was? You're welcome..

Well....actually.....they do have the option to all start in the same wave...if they choose to race age group that is their choice....

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*For an additional fee.

**Still pretty excellent to have to option

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Thank you so much!!

Well....what if they aren't planning to race for prize money but end up in the top 5?

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

Congratulations to John and the rest of the race team. It looked like another year of excellent weather. There seem to be 3 rules of racing in southern Ontario - Lakeside weekend will be cool and usually wet, Wasaga Beach (when it was after Labour Day) would bring epic winds/waves and Barrelman will be hot!

I've raced Barrelman twice in the past and it remains my favourite race to date. Despite being a point to point bike course, the race team pulled it off flawlessly without any logistical issues.

Hoping to be in 1/2 distance shape next year to give it a try again.

Good point and maybe we will have to consider waiving that for people who are racing for the prize money. On the other I am not sure if the $10 fee would be an obstacle for someone who honestly believes they have the ability and opportunity to race for up to $1,000 U.S.

I thought the fact that the prize money was open to anyone was something a little different, rather than only pros.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

Hey John, I can give you the history of how we came to this being the best way to give out money. I was there through it all, and part of the group that instituted this policy. You ask what if someone gets top 5 and didnt start in the money wave, easy, they dont get the money. What "ALL" the pros determined a very long time ago, was that you need to be able to see who you are racing, race on the exact same conditions, and have an opportunity to know where you are at.

Given the choice, people will chose to go later, where drafting isnt enforced, and you get to be a chaser. The folks out front are at a big disadvantage being rabbits, and also in the point of the race where there is a lot more scrutiny. It was pretty much universal that it just wasnt fair, and after each and every race, there would be tons of complaints of this or that athlete cheating, whether they were or not. And courses just change as the day moves on, sometimes even 10 minutes can make a huge difference in wind or temperature.

Then we took it even further and got a separate women's start at Ironman, and one that kept them out of the age group men while on the bike. Separation was the only fair way to let them race for the money. It took awhile, and years and years of complaining, but it is all good now, and everyone is happy.

Not sure why you are dragging your feet on this, unless you just dont understand all the pitfalls of that old, antiquated system of giving out $$. Same course, same time, same prizes, it really is simple, and it gets rid of all the potential headaches that you can and will encounter..

I still think this should be a more inclusive system, sort of a hybrid between the 2. In many systems, you have to be a registered pro in order to even enter the prize money wave. Not a pro? Too bad. You go to the back of the line. In John's system, anyone gets a chance at the cash. Now, if you can open the money wave to anyone (without a fee, which reeks of a money grab), not just the pros, then I think you got something excellent.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

And your earlier response already had me thinking of that as an option.

I can tell you that not one pro has ever complained when an age grouper, who went in a later wave has ever complained.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

One of my athletes declined the option of paying the extra money to start the race 5 minutes earlier because he felt that it was just another way of taking advantage of triathletes and their supposed disposable income. There were several athletes in this group of people that felt similar. Only 1 of them decided to pay the money because they would started in a much later wave and didn't want to deal with the meander that is the norm for starting in the back. He liked having the option but the extra fee felt a little sour. Both finished in the top 20 (First guy had a virus to boot. Had he been 100%, he would have competed for a money spot.) All agreed that having the option to take home prize money was excellent!

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I understand that some might consider $10 a money grab however, the choose your own wave option creates administrative costs in the final sorting of waves so we ensure they are not too large and safe. I think we make it up in our pricing being low, especially in the first few months after registration opens.

I would have no problem waiving the fee for people who want to race for the cash however, I still believe that an age grouper in a letter wave, who has an incredible day (even if unexpected result) should be in the mix.

Would love to hear what others think.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

You put on top notch races for Age Groupers (and pros). I would be surprised to learn anyone races this race "for the money".
I really don't like the argument that just because it has always been that way, its the correct way to go.

I can tell you that not one pro has ever complained when an age grouper, who went in a later wave has ever complained.


Of course the have, to their friends, family, to whomever, just not to you. And I believe they dont have to be a pro to race in an "elite" wave if the total money is not that large as in your race. So anyone could pitch up to that money wave if that was their desire. But hey, do what you want, its your race, I'm just pointing out how it is done everywhere else, and why. Seems like you have a complaint on this very thread..IF it were 50 bucks, then no big deal, but a grand, no doubt there are some plotting on how to get that much money, and not just racing fairly.

Of course the have, to their friends, family, to whomever, just not to you. And I believe they dont have to be a pro to race in an "elite" wave if the total money is not that large as in your race. So anyone could pitch up to that money wave if that was their desire. But hey, do what you want, its your race, I'm just pointing out how it is done everywhere else, and why. Seems like you have a complaint on this very thread..IF it were 50 bucks, then no big deal, but a grand, no doubt there are some plotting on how to get that much money, and not just racing fairly.


Mark,

I get what you are getting at, and I do understand that angle, but with all due respect, I think you are way over-thinking this.

We RARELY have money at races like this in Canada. What I find interesting is that when you do put up money like this, it does almost nothing to attract a better "Pro" field!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I get what you are getting at, and I do understand that angle, but with all due respect, I think you are way over-thinking this. //

He Steve, with all due respect, I'm not overthinking anything, this is settled history, I believe you were there during it, weren't you(maybe even a part of it)?? We thought about it, argued about it, tried different approaches, took all the inputs of all sides, and in the end, came up with the best and fairest solution. So I'm not thinking about it anymore, it has been settled, and a long time ago..


If you dont get any top athletes you can use for the money, then why give it out in the first place? Another route could just to give out AG prize money then, 50 bucks to win, maybe 25 to show(or a 100 to win, depends on your overall allotment). I know a few races in the past have done that, and it really perks up the AG fields, even though a token amount. And everyone gets to race head to head.. But perhaps now I'm overthinking it again, I will bow out now, glad the race is going well..

Thanks for that insight, it is valuable. Keeping in mind the adage that you cannot please everyone, the history of Choose Your Own Wave was an effort to please as many people as possible. Here is a little history behind why the option was created and the issues specific to our race relating to safety, logistics, customer service and satisfaction. As to the smell of "cash grab" we actually do NOT want a lot of people choosing their own wave and perhaps the following will help you believe that.

The original reason the option was created in our triathlon series was that competitive older age groupers, who traditionally started in later waves, wanted the option to move up. On the other end of the spectrum, some younger athletes, who were not as experienced or were more fearful of the swim wanted to move back. We started it there and it was well received. Given that it worked for the series, I thought we should give it to Barrelman athletes.

Now, logistically for all races and, PARTICULARLY Barrelman, the implications are these. The waves are staggered and have time starts spacing that takes into account the swim venue and the nature of the bike course. We want the safest swim possible while minimizing the possibility of drafting on what is a very flat course. The flat bike course and drafting is usually negated somewhat with the usual headwinds in the first 30 to 35km however, we MUST plan based on ideal conditions being no wind on a pleasantly warm day. Logistically that means smaller waves and starts which are more spaced out.


For safety reasons, a mass swim start is out of the question and many middle of the pack and back athletes are nervous about larger waves. We have and will continue to limit the size of the waves to make sure they are as safe as possible. Once registration is closed we choose the age groups start a particular wave based on our upper limit for a wave, the number of athletes in an age group, keeping in mind which age groups are historically faster or slower. We want the more competitive and faster waves at the front of the race so they do not have to weave through the field on the bike. That would create drafting situations and more importantly is unsafe. This process is sacrosanct for safety reasons. However, from a competitive age group perspective it was frustrating for some, particularly the older top age groupers whose waves were later in the race, so we wanted to give them an option. In doing so they were not having to weave through that many more athletes on the bike, and from our perspective made things more safe on the bike. Some will say this tilts the playing field. My answer is I have to go with historical data and customer feedback. In that regard, I have not had one complaint.


You might also suggest that we just let everyone choose their own wave. If we were to do that I would personally assume the vast majority would choose the first wave or two. Even if it were not the majority, what would we do if 250 or 500 people chose the first wave which has an upper limit of 150? Now one could say, well it should be first come first serve. Remember there is an ABSOLUTE need to start the majority of people in their own age group for a myriad of reasons. I am sure you most would get that. Even if you set aside the safety and fairness of age groups starting together, there are also costly administrative issues in deviating from age group starts and head to head racing vs. everyone choosing their own wave.


As I said up top we are trying to satisfy as many people as possible. As I am sure you know there are all sorts of subsets of groups. Generally they would be pro, elite age group, competitive age group, middle of the pack and back of the pack. The Pick Your Own Wave option was simply our way of trying to satisfy as many as we could. I am sorry to hear, but not surprised, that some think it is a cash grab. I would suggest that those who come to know us will not lean in that direction...or I hope so. Tri-Banter please let me know if that makes sense to you and whether you have more feedback.


I respect what Monty is saying relating to pros and a level playing field. Barrelman and I think that most if not all, who came through our series like Cody Beals, Lionel Sanders, Jackson Laundry (to name the more recent), would say we respect them and have always sought their feedback. They are customers too.


Finally and incidentally the total number of people who chose to pick their own wave was 27. As I said at the top we do not want a lot of people to choose their own wave but we do want people to have as many options at our race as possible. To be that is simply good customer service.


I do think we must be doing something right given the annual increases in registration with the vast majority of reviews being excellent.


As before, please keep up the feedback. We use it and try to make it better!!

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

Hi John,

Ouf of the 27 who elected to choose their wave, how many factored into a podium or top 5 result?
Having done many of your events over the last 2 seasons, I've tried to roll with this new option and have both not picked and picked to change my wave.
Personally, I wish it wasn't an option, for the sole reason that it pulls away from the race element. As an example, when I did Welland this year, both myself and the guy in front were announced 2 & 3 in our AG when we crossed, only to later find that wasn't the case and a guy who started later bumped us down one. I've also had the similar outcome when choosing to stay with my AG wave, only to find out that others haven't, and they were up the course.
Laslty, I've had the situation where I paid the fee to start in the first wave, only to learn on race day that my AG was the first wave anyways, so the fee was "wasted".
For these reasons, I've decided that I won't be choosing the first wave upgrade next year, but knowing that others can/will, is disheartening when you are wanting "head to head" racing.
Cheers.

Don't waste your energy John.

You run a fantastic race and have always been thoughtful, measured and fair in your design, organization and decisions relating to the course and athletes. As you say, you will never please everyone, but to me Barrelman is a broad race that appeals to the masses - beginners and experts alike - we're not talking KONA here, and I think you do a tremendous job balancing the diverse needs. I've raced Barrelman three times (including yesterday) - started as a beginner and would like to think of myself as more experienced now - it is by far my favorite race and presents a very compelling alternative to the Ironman series.

You are practically the only independent race I know of that has continued growing while the many other local races (and triathlon as a whole unfortunately) see their numbers falling year after year. Clearly you are doing something right. Keep doing you!

Jon, thank you for giving me your perspective.

First - Wow, Sorry! I screwed that up. Just redid a resort of data and in fact there were 127 who chose a wave. The vast majority of the remainder actually moved back a wave, none of which were in a podium or top 5. My apologies on the misinformation. I could have a look at those who moved up to wave #1 vs where they would have started, simply out of interests sake.

Second - Full disclosure my feeling as a former athlete was always that you should race in your wave because then you are racing in exactly the same conditions as everyone else in your age group. I had a lot of sometimes heated discussions with customers who wanted to move up. Then, I tried the choose a wave option based on feedback a few years ago. Perhaps I allowed my thinking to be skewed by more vocal customer/athletes. Your and others feedback are causing me to rethink Choose Your own Wave for Barrelman, and maybe the series.

Maybe the hybrid should be, choose your wave if you want to MOVE BACK because you are an uneasy swimmer. Maybe that would satisfy the safety issue and re-level the field on the competitive side. Sometimes we make decisions that we think are in the best interest of the customer and what they want....but are wrong. I am not afraid to do so.....Anyone else have an opinion?

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

Tri-Banter please let me know if that makes sense to you and whether you have more feedback.
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John,

Note- I think this is an excellent discussion and I absolutely love that you are here to have it. I have done your race every year it's been offered, save this one due to injury (which I deferred to next year- so thanks for having that option available as well!). I also send a lot of business your way as well. I can't say enough about the event. So, make sure that this message is loud and clear before we get into the meat of our current issue.

Your explanation as to why you created the option for choosing your wave is valid and understood. If I read you right, you are saying that the additional fee is being used as a deterrent for people to actually take advantage of the option. I get that and appreciate it. I'm just reporting the feeling amongst my tiny group of athletes, who are used to feeling taken advantage of by the sport. I know it's not the case, just the vibe it gives off.

In my little utopia of a triathlon brain, you would have racing as follows:
-Elite: People sign up for this event in an effort to win the overall and cash awards. In doing so, you negate your status for other awards, such as Age Group. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. May require evidence of past results to qualify (EX: Recent HIM time of sub 5:30)

-Competitive Age Group: Not eligible for overall awards but eligible for Age Group awards. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. No requirement of past race results.

-Non-Competitive Age Group: People who are on the course with the idea of finishing the distance and/ or racing themselves. They can have a little more flexibility in the scrutiny of the rules. For example, they can ride/ run with a partner. Not subjected to doping controls. Also not eligible for awards.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Thank you for your kind words...I really appreciate it!!


Yes, I would somewhat agree with the notion it was intended to be a bit of a deterrent however, not entirely so. It was also about trying to give customers options. I will say that we do have an Elite Age Group category in the series and maybe you have something here. I am starting to think three sets of waves. Pros, Elite Age Group and Age Group.


As to your specific suggestions, let me try and answer with an athlete's mindset combined with the practical limitations of logistics, time and registration system capability. I am also suffering from post-race weekend brain and reserve the right to edit later or add-on :-).

-Elite: People sign up for this event in an effort to win the overall and cash awards. In doing so, you negate your status for other awards, such as Age Group. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. May require evidence of past results to qualify (EX: Recent HIM time of sub 5:30)

I like this option and it's structure and it makes the race pure as head to head racing. The biggest issue I see off the top is gathering the scrutinization data/proof. In fact, if they are removing themselves from any possibility of awards, why do we need proof? Logically why would one choose that category, given that we would not include them in other age group awards, unless they thought they had a chance at the cash. Having said that.....I could see where some of our top age groupers who are on that cusp would not enter as they would not get any award at all on the day, thereby reducing the cash field. That could mean we give out less (a reverse cash grab.....hahaha)

-Competitive Age Group: Not eligible for overall awards but eligible for Age Group awards. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. This group is scrutinized to the letter of the law in the rules. No requirement of past race results.

Please elaborate a little more as to what, scrutinized to the letter of the law, means. If you mean competition rules such as drafting or blocking on the bike (riding side by side), well that is the standard anyway. Which means the status quo.

-Non-Competitive Age Group: People who are on the course with the idea of finishing the distance and/ or racing themselves. They can have a little more flexibility in the scrutiny of the rules. For example, they can ride/ run with a partner. Not subjected to doping controls. Also not eligible for awards.

Personally, there is no way I would allow it, if for no other reason than safety, on the bike, blocking and drafting too closely are simply dangerous when you are talking about less experienced cyclists. The roads are not close to vehicular traffic so imagine the situation where a group are riding three of four abreast and a car wants to pass....THAT is a recipe for injury and/or bike accidents.


The Competitive vs Non-Competitive is problematic from a logistical officiating perspective. It would probably necessitate needing more officials than currently available in all of Ontario. Even if we had enough officials, since athletes are not required to wear a BIB on the bike, how would an official differentiate Competitive Age Group above fro the non-Competitive. I cannot see any way to make that work.


Finally, allowing this means not being sanctioned by Triathlon Ontario, which then negate our liability insurance certificates, which then means no authorizations from any municipality that the race goes through, which then means NO RACE!

Am I missing anything as it relates to your suggestions?

As a bit of an aside as it relates to pros and the elite category you suggested and my remarks. To all of that you might say, well it's good if the race now simply has Elites/Pros because know you have a pure elite field.


I know what this race is in the world of triathlon. To be honest I don't even see us as competition to the WTC, that would be arrogant! We are an independent race that is trying to differentiate by providing a safe and great race experience in a relaxed atmosphere in a phenomenal location. This is not Kona or some huge cash WTC race, so we are not talking about a large field of pure Elites. In fact I never thought for a second that $5,000 U.S. would attract a large pro field so that was not the original point of the prize money. It was to give the pointy end of the stick a race where they had more to win. If that meant some nearby pros or the top 5 were all age groupers, I was happy with that.


The fact that people like Lionel Saunders, Coby Beals, Jackson laundry and Taylor Reid have shown up is great. I can also say and believe that most have done that as a show of support to MultiSport Canada, more than a chance to win $1,000. For that they know they have my gratitude. I am also not naive enough to believe that $5,000 cash in a race without the cache of the Mdot is going to draw pros, which in turn means more age group entries. In fact, I personally do not believe that many age groupers, if any, sign up to do any race simply because a field of top pros is racing.

Again, I love that you are making suggestions and welcome any and all.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

I was one of the athletes that choose to race in a different wave and paid my $10. I am in the 60-64 age group. I am a faster swimmer (35 minutes) and cyclist (sub 2:30 on the weekend), with a slower run (2:20ish) . I find when I start in a late wave that I swim through the slower swimmers of a least 3 waves, in some cases I come upon slower swimmers so fast that I don't see them and that is dangerous for both me and them. On the bike I have to deal with many slower cyclists and the number of passing situations is large. I choose to race in the second wave as I felt I could have a safer bike ride and not have to deal with nearly as many slower cyclists. I am grateful to John Salt and his race organization for allowing athletes to a make this choice.