Damn you pdxjohn, how about you wait about 1 more week and I'll have a very good answer for you....

Be patient. We've been working on this eight weeks :)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

 
There can be as many as 15 characteristics per component to look at with regards to it being "better or worse" than the other makers product.

I have the good fortune of working for vendors that spec, sell, and service both Shimano and Campagnolo components and hope to provide some insight to Tom's study.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

My god pdxjohn, you have no idea what you've set in motion with your simple query. Just wait until Record9Ti gets ahold of this thread: )

Worms, life is a can of worms.

It's so obvious which one is better!

Unquestionably, the best one is the one that moves you forward.

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I don't work here, I just live here

Well, OK, let me tease you. We built bikes, we took bikes apart. We weighed parts, we broke parts. We called companies, we asked questions. We asked customers, we took notes, we asked each other, we consulted with engineers and engineering students.

People say it is a matter of opinion. I disagree. These things are nuts and bolts. Clearly one is better. And we did come up with an answer. We'll present the supporting evidence and arguments for your review.

Stay tuned.....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Looking at the new catalogs and prices , one coud say I bought the Campy because it was cheaper than the DuraAce. WTF? G

I cant wait to hear Toms reply...of course if he find for ShimaNO I can always fall back on the "Slowtwitch" review that Record has more superior parts than ShimaNO. (then there is about 1000 other reviews with the same outcome). However, now that the ShimaNO 10 has FINALLY come out (better late than never?) - it will be interesting to see how that factors in. I would just hope that Tom does not have any Oujia board bull shit about how a crank is stiffer than another (at a stiffness factor something no human would be able to feel)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

1) How durable is "durable enough"?

I see the Record or Dura Ace consumer will typically want to upgrade their components as significant improvements by the manufacturer are made. Most 8 speed users have upgraded to 9 and now the 9 speed users are going to upgrade to 10. Most of the components should last these 2-4 year cycles. Some components that wear will have shorter lives, and others should last 10 times this long, but most should fall into that 2-4 year cycle before the performance deteriorates substantially. I don't think things like crank arms, bottom bracket spindles, hub shells, seatposts, and bolts should ever have a duty cycle. These things should not need replacement for the life of the bicycle under normal use (5-10 years).

2) How many of each group do you sell a year and what is your overall warranty return rate (as a % of number sold) for each? 3) What are your top three warranty return reasons for each group?

I sell Dura Ace about 4 times as much as I do Record, but the ratio of Shimano to Campagnolo is more like 3:2. The biggest warranty item is the right hand shifter for BOTH makes. I also see lots of Dura Ace bottom brackets, chainring bolts, and used to see the rear derailleurs when the "B-tension" bolt mount was made of aluminum, Shimano changed that part to steel. Campagnolo's first 10 speed chains and "permalinks" were not very reliable. Their installation process was different from any other chain and experiened and garage mechanics alike were ruining the chain. Campagnolo didn't see this as their fault, but they have since changed their design and use a Shimano-like "special" rivet pin for installation. I also see a cassette or two retuned because the user did not install the spacers in the correct postion. Campagnolo uses different thicknesses of spacers for each position in the cassette and if installed incorrectly, it will not shift at all! Again, ignorance, while no excuse, certainly makes the component worthless.

4) Do you see a higher, lower, or equal warranty return rate for the lower price point offerings for each manufacturer?

I see about the same warranty returns with each of the other groups, perhaps a bit less but this may be due to the higher end consumer being more "in touch" with his equipment and their being in general a higher standard of performance. It should also be mentioned that the top groups have a longer warranty than that of Ultegra, 105, or Centuar, Veloce. That said, typcially with Shimano I see the item in question fail very early on in its use. If a shifter is going to go bad, it'll fail in a couple months, not after 2.5 years. Campagnolo on the other hand seems to have incremental performance losses as the parts are used. The shifters at 6 months old are not as crisp as they were when new, 2 year old models even more sloppy, and 5 year old shifters that have not been rebuilt have drastically reduced performance, now some consumers will complain and try to have their Ergopower warranteed at the slightest hint of wear, but this is to be expected.

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Campagnolo does not have price controls in place for vendors. If you low-ball Shimano, they won't sell to you so the price is kept artifically high.

The cost of Campagnolo vs. Shimano to the vendor is typically much higher for the Italian stuff, as much as 30% more.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Exactly....ShimaNO has a better PR and Contract Dept than Campy has...that is their edge on the current OEM market. As ShimaNO has a greater depth in the OEM market it is easier for them to upsell their products as most people already own their products. However, ShimaNO has false price controls to keep their products resale prices either elevated, or lower compared to the competition. Then there is the great ShimaNO effort to prevent "Grey Market" grouppos....all in all ShimaNO make MUCH more money per part than Campy makes per part...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

<<Exactly....ShimaNO has a better PR and Contract Dept than Campy has...that is their edge on the current OEM market. >>

I used to work for a good sized bike manufacturer here in the Northwest. Shimano gets a large portion of the OEM spec because they can deliver on time. Seriously, Campy may be nice stuff, but when you are trying to ship bikes to dealers, you can't be waiting for components. Call ontime delivery of product strong arm tactics if you want, but it's simple business in reality.

Brett

I typcially don't handle the returns personally, I hear of many of them from our suppliers and from the customers I sell to, but don't actually log the paperwork. I can say that I warranty around 1-2%, but that number is not an indication of what Campagnolo or Shimano actually sees.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Quality will tell you that there are many more ShimaNO warranty issues than Campy...however, certainly part of that is that there is about a 9-1 ratio of ShimaNO bikes out there over Campy. I my years, I have never had a Campy warranty issue - where as a buddy is on his 3rd Durachee BB in less than 2 years.



WAIT WAIT WAIT...I did warranty a Record H/S...I think that the Record H/S Sucks...all my bikes have King - no more worries.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?