Is there a tri short available that gives some added buoyancy that’s also legal for non-wetsuit swims? Looks like the temps are going to make my upcoming races no wetsuit, just wondering.
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Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
I’m pretty sure anything like that would not be legal for a non-wetsuit swim
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
Is there a tri short available that gives some added buoyancy that’s also legal for non-wetsuit swims? Looks like the temps are going to make my upcoming races no wetsuit, just wondering.That’s illegal
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [MrTri123]
[ In reply to ]
Not even something with a buoyant seat pad?
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
Not even something with a buoyant seat pad?Its all illegal. No wetsuit = no buoyance assist. Just get some better body position (may require 300 hrs of swimming) and make sure your legs and core and well conditioned.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Its all illegal.//
Is it though? I mean I see all kinds of Tri shorts made out of lycra, with seat pads in them, and I presume most of them float. Are you telling me they are illegal to wear on their own> I train in the pool in my DeSoto Tri shorts, they feel heavy. Not sure if they float(probably), but pretty sure they wouldn't float more than a silver dollar worth of weight. Certainly not the advantage of a full on speed suit, which would be legal...
Is it though? I mean I see all kinds of Tri shorts made out of lycra, with seat pads in them, and I presume most of them float. Are you telling me they are illegal to wear on their own> I train in the pool in my DeSoto Tri shorts, they feel heavy. Not sure if they float(probably), but pretty sure they wouldn't float more than a silver dollar worth of weight. Certainly not the advantage of a full on speed suit, which would be legal...
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
So just because the water temp is above 78 degrees, buoyancy now becomes an unfair advantage? I agree with your recommendations, but the concept of not allowing buoyant shorts when wetsuits are perfectly fine (given temperatures considerations) is lost on me.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
So just because the water temp is above 78 degrees, buoyancy now becomes an unfair advantage? I agree with your recommendations, but the concept of not allowing buoyant shorts when wetsuits are perfectly fine (given temperatures considerations) is lost on me.If this is your mindset, I can't help you. Just go to your race with a pull buoy in that case and while you are at it, get some dead fish from Frank Cardia (as in finman's fins).
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
My apologies, I thought I was on slow twitch, and not on let’s run.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
My apologies, I thought I was on slow twitch, and not on let’s run.You have been told what the rules are but continue to try to find a way that they won't apply to you.
Check out the rules for yourself if you don't believe everyone here on ST.
http://ap.ironman.com/...s.aspx#axzz5sNNQcNc2
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
What part of dev’s response was unclear? Buoyancy aids are illegal.
That said, you could wear a good swimskin, they’ll give a very small buoyancy aid by trapping a little bit of air, plus compression will help reduce drag and improve alignment.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
That said, you could wear a good swimskin, they’ll give a very small buoyancy aid by trapping a little bit of air, plus compression will help reduce drag and improve alignment.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
The rules posted by Ironman give more details about permissible swim gear than the rules posted by USAT https://www.teamusa.org/...ve-rules#article%203
Ironman rules refer to textile materials vs neoprene or polyurethane. USAT states nothing. My local race Sunday (USAT sanctioned sprint/olympic) looks to be too warm for wetsuits so I think I'll be a little more observant this time. I strained a hammie about a month ago so my run's gonna suck, may need those extra seconds to get on the podium.
Ironman rules refer to textile materials vs neoprene or polyurethane. USAT states nothing. My local race Sunday (USAT sanctioned sprint/olympic) looks to be too warm for wetsuits so I think I'll be a little more observant this time. I strained a hammie about a month ago so my run's gonna suck, may need those extra seconds to get on the podium.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
I can't help you on the shorts but I found a bike you can use in another thread that may help you?
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
Per USAT rules... above 78 to 84 you can wear something with buoyancy, but be ineligible for awards. Above 84, no buoyancy, including floaty shorts.
I'm not sure what Ironman rules are... honestly for non-wetsuit swims, get a good swimskin and learn good body position to keep your hips up naturally.
I'm not sure what Ironman rules are... honestly for non-wetsuit swims, get a good swimskin and learn good body position to keep your hips up naturally.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [Shambolic]
[ In reply to ]
Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue.
But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.
But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue. But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.
I'm not sure I understand where you say "why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue". because buoyancy provided by same neoprene shorts is an advantage. Am I not understanding your question? or are you saying they should allow buoyancy shorts no matter the temperature?
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [mickison]
[ In reply to ]
mickison wrote:
vonschnapps wrote:
Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue. But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.
I'm not sure I understand where you say "why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue". because buoyancy provided by same neoprene shorts is an advantage. Am I not understanding your question? or are you saying they should allow buoyancy shorts no matter the temperature?
No, I understand that the rule is no wetsuit over 78 degrees due to the potential of over heating. I was wondering if there were buoyant shorts available for when wetsuits were not allowed. It was pointed out to me that buoyant shorts would be illegal. So it left me wondering if when wetsuits are allowed buoyancy is ok, why is it that buoyant shorts (which wouldn’t cause overheating issues) are not approved. Yes, it would give an advantage, but so does a wetsuit. Some choose not to wear a wetsuit when temps allow. There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. Are these type of shorts illegal in any race? I’m under the impression that under 78 you can wear anything?
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. //
there is, and I think I can clear it up quickly. Buoyant shorts(made from neoprene) = wetsuit. So whenever you see a rule about a wetsuit, it includes buoyant shorts too...
there is, and I think I can clear it up quickly. Buoyant shorts(made from neoprene) = wetsuit. So whenever you see a rule about a wetsuit, it includes buoyant shorts too...
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
I assumed under 78 you could wear the buoyant shorts.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
vonschnapps wrote:
mickison wrote:
vonschnapps wrote:
Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue. But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.
I'm not sure I understand where you say "why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue". because buoyancy provided by same neoprene shorts is an advantage. Am I not understanding your question? or are you saying they should allow buoyancy shorts no matter the temperature?
No, I understand that the rule is no wetsuit over 78 degrees due to the potential of over heating. I was wondering if there were buoyant shorts available for when wetsuits were not allowed. It was pointed out to me that buoyant shorts would be illegal. So it left me wondering if when wetsuits are allowed buoyancy is ok, why is it that buoyant shorts (which wouldn’t cause overheating issues) are not approved. Yes, it would give an advantage, but so does a wetsuit. Some choose not to wear a wetsuit when temps allow. There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. Are these type of shorts illegal in any race? I’m under the impression that under 78 you can wear anything?
I see your point here, it's a reasonable question.
I'm not a USAT expert, but just in my impression, wetsuits were mainly originally allowed for warmth - it just happened to be that they give a significant boost in speed due to both buoyancy and the smoother surface. I doubt it was the USAT original intent to let competitors use wetsuits mainly for the speed boost, and that advantage is just a reality of using wetsuits in swimming.
So for warm conditions (where wetsuits can actually be dangerous for overheating - has actually happaned several times!), it makes more sense to just disallow all buoyancy aids that could give a significant speed boost.
Interestingly, in my personal case, I swim SLOWER with a pull buoy than without (by about 7sec/100!) and thus even if they allowed PBs in races, I'd opt to not use one. Nor would I use the floaty shorts. But I don't blame you for asking - I do think wetsuits are very helpful for getting more newbs and rookies into our sport, which is not a bad thing in the state of decline it's currently undergoing.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
Wetsuits are allowed under 78 degrees not because of buoyancy, but in spite of it. That's because the greater overriding concern (for Ironman) below that is temperature. So they accept the benefit that buoyancy adds because you can't have one (thermal protection) without the other (buoyancy), but it is not the point of the rule. Its a trade off: Allow buoyancy because it provides insulation and they are more worried about temperature.
Over 78 degrees, they don't have to accept the trade-off because temperature is no longer a concern, so they do not have to allow buoyancy either. Therefore, the sim short is prohibited.
My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that's because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I'll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.
Over 78 degrees, they don't have to accept the trade-off because temperature is no longer a concern, so they do not have to allow buoyancy either. Therefore, the sim short is prohibited.
My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that's because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I'll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [monty]
[ In reply to ]
Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. Is it USAT’s thinking that the benefits of wearing a wetsuit in cold water outweighs the advantage of buoyancy, so when there’s no safety benefit (temp above 78) the buoyancy benefit should be nullified? I was thinking that if buoyancy was ok under 78, what would be the reason to eliminate it over 78.
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [Sluglas]
[ In reply to ]
Sluglas wrote:
My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that's because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I'll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.I have a dozen snarky things I could say about this but let me just say that swimming properly, or at least making an effort to, would seem to be a core requirement for a race that includes long swims. You would be a better, faster swimmer with or without the floaty pants if your swim technique was up to par. Not to mention if you ever fell off a cruise ship (sans floaty pants) you might have a chance of making it to shore.
"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
Re: Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims [vonschnapps]
[ In reply to ]
Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. //
Yes you do. USAT does not care or factor in buoyancy when using them, they only care about water temperature, and thus have set there temperature numbers. Once again, if it is made of neoprene, it is a wetsuit, pants, shorts, tops, etc., all wetsuits..They had to draw a line somewhere, you may not like that line, but every rule has folks on both sides of it. They try and make them to fit the majority, and penciling in little differences and accept-ions, just complicates rules and makes them even harder to enforce.
I really dont see the problem here anyway, if it is speed one is looking at in warmer non wetsuit legal races, the swim skin is the best bang for the buck..
Yes you do. USAT does not care or factor in buoyancy when using them, they only care about water temperature, and thus have set there temperature numbers. Once again, if it is made of neoprene, it is a wetsuit, pants, shorts, tops, etc., all wetsuits..They had to draw a line somewhere, you may not like that line, but every rule has folks on both sides of it. They try and make them to fit the majority, and penciling in little differences and accept-ions, just complicates rules and makes them even harder to enforce.
I really dont see the problem here anyway, if it is speed one is looking at in warmer non wetsuit legal races, the swim skin is the best bang for the buck..
Hey, thanks for your concern, it's appreciated. I also don't work on a lot of skills that are specific to bike racing, i.e. very up and down surging types of efforts because, well, they aren't necessary in non-drafting triathlon. Or track stands; don't do a lot of those since I don't compete in match sprints. Heck, I don't even work on doing the water jump in my running because I don't do the Steeplechase. And while I agree that maybe I would find a marginal benefit in doing all of the above as it applies to non-drafting long distance triathlon, there's only so much time.
And generally I stay away from boats.
And generally I stay away from boats.