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Re: keto and endurance racing [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Nutrition science in this country is a joke. Too often, what we see is "eminence" based, rather than science or results based. Anytime I see a headline or a news article on a "new study", I am skeptical. Even abstracts can be totally misleading. Sometimes I think "peer reviewed" just means they found somebody else as stupid (or biased) as they are to review it. The methodology behind some of the epidemiology based studies is laughable. And of course, you have large companies (big ag, big food, big pharma) trying to game the system. I am skeptical of everything.

With respect to Keto and LCHF, I'd suggest you check out a couple of things. Zach Bitter on the Human Performance Outliers podcast. He is an ultra distance runner. Primarily carnivore, but has good info on his experience and when he supplements with carbs. Also look into Sami Inkinen, CEO of Virta. Virta is helping people with Type 2 diabetes without meds, through diet changes. Somewhere, I think on his blog, he talks about his experience with Low Carb and endurance including Ironman distance.

There are many good articles and podcasts out there with good information on this subject.

The evidence continues to grow that carbs are not a necessary part of the human diet, and that too many carbs in the diet leads to the epidemic of chronic disease we see today, obesity, diabetes, inflammation, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, cancer, etc... Even among athletes. But it is also true that everyone is different, and there can be variations. For example, in one presentation I watched, the speaker was a strong advocate for the carnivore diet. But she acknowledged their researched show that approx 2 to 3% of the population has a certain genetic makeup/gut biome that they could do just as well on a vegan or vegetarian diet (gave her a little more credibility in my eyes).

Find what best works for you through experimentation.

Lastly, I reserve the right to change my opinion as I acquire new data. As they say, "the mind is like a parachute, if it's not open, it won't work".
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kiwi Spud] [ In reply to ]
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Kiwi Spud wrote:
Hi team
I have been a long distance runner on and off for ages, I've been eating keto now for 3 months and have just started an 16 month training for Ironman 2021.
I know in theory keto is brilliant for endurance etc, but what's it like in practice? I'd love to hear from anybody who has been training in keto, what they use to fuel, how (if at all) do they pre-load and what do you do raceday?
Thanks heaps
Charlotte

Can you elaborate on why you think it even ranks as "equal" to a traditional high carbohydrate diet? If you're seriously considering pursuing this route, or even simply low carbohydrate, you should begin by investigating what PubMed has to say, as it relates to training. It's been 5 years or so since I've reviewed that literature, but at that time, unless you were doing some extreme and overt cherry-picking, the unanimous verdict was that low carbohydrate compromised performance substantially. And in that case, where on earth did you come across your information? I'm really not trying to be condescending so I apologize if it comes across that way, but it's always staggering to me how poorly the scientific community disseminates its knowledge.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
Good for the Inuit that they didn't read research papers, otherwise they would have become extinct!

They aren't exactly known for being competitive endurance athletes though, are they?

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Re: keto and endurance racing [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
The one and ONLY ONE segment of the population to have been scientifically shown to benefit from Keto is autistic children. Seizures have been lessened. Otherwise, not 1 true peer reviewed study has shown a benefit, and many have shown detrimental results, especially in short efforts.


Reverse type 2 diabetes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1325029/

I haven't read the paper, but ketosis is likely an artifact, as carbohydrate restriction is more than sufficient to allow the insulin receptors to recycle, de-glycosylate and resensitize.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
HardlyTrying wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
I have been using Generation Ucan. It works and I like you don't get the same peaks and troughs as you


Ucan is corn starch. It's a carb. Volek has a financial interest in it and they've decided to market it to low-carb people for some reason. But according to the studies they advertise, it doesn't actually do anything.

Yes I know it is a carb but lower GI hence I don't get the peaks and troughs as I stated and why they market it to low carb people... You still need carbs to race but the lower GI the better.

For you personally, or are you speaking universally? Serious question.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
I set a PR in my 5k, 10k and open HM landing in the 18:ss on the 5k. Set a PR in my local Sprint Triathlon race on just water. My longer event PRs have already been posted.

I am one of those who has a gluten sensitivity that made my family avoid me because of stomach "issues". I also had blood sugar issues that dropped, glucose around 32 with meter, every 2-3 weeks. I would lay on the ground with blurry vision and irregular heartbeat until somebody got me lots of sugar or I shoved gels into my system. I just dealt with it because that was normal to me. The doctors just told me to carry a Glucose gel pack and we kept them in the first aid kit at work. I carried several gels during runs no matter how short they were. All that is gone now. I don't need a scientific study to tell me this works for me.

My mother-in-law was diabetic. She had been on medicine to control it but tried keto and after 2 months she was off her medicine. She doesn't need a study to tell her it worked either.

That's the thing about observation in the absence of scientific rigor....you're more likely to falsely attribute outcomes to the wrong independent variables.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
So if a paper says it's not good then my results with it are not valid? Do you know how many things in life work great on paper but don't work well in practice? Do you see the obesity and health problems in the US right now? Do you see medical centers being built on every corner to capitalize on the problem? Do you notice health Care cost rising and small companies not being able to offer Health insurance to their employees because of the high cost? I couldn't perform eating the standard American diet. When I switched to LCHF I can now perform and feel better. I was showing you the facts of my life. I could have just did, "I am faster now" but what does that mean without showing before and after results? I improved on LCHF, not just in performance but my quality of life. Mentally and emotionally I have also improved. It has been very dramatic welcome change to my family and friends.

I don't understand your point of these population observations as it relates to macronutrient intake distribution.

If you have a gluten sensitivity, your enemy is not carbohydrate, globally. You're aware of that, right? I feel like you're making attributions that are false, both with your health and among the population at large. And this is the entire utility of the scientific method; control bias to the highest degree possible and manipulate variables singly and then assess the outcome measures. And just FYI, I'm totally not trying to be snarky or condescending with any of this commentary, I just didn't take the time to make sure it read more "gently". And no kidding, I'm really glad you got your symptoms under control. I know a few legitimately gluten sensitive people, as well as a few with Crohn's. It's just doesn't seem like a fair way for anyone to have to live.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
It seems you are not able to understand your own analogies with the flat landers. There is absolutely no science that can prove that one size fits all diet exists. His anecdotal evidence is proof of this, although it wasn't even required, as it is quite obvious. What I am saying is he nor anybody else in this thread that I can think of is claiming that that anecdotal evidence can be extrapolated.

Furthermore, what you call science is so biased by commercial and other spurious interests that I hardly take it seriously, or at the minimum with a grain of salt. At least in fields so variable as nutrition and exercise.

What this actually means is "I don't have a clue how academic and independent research entities operates within the framework of funding institutions".

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Re: keto and endurance racing [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
The most common misconception by far, was that fat is converted to energy. The problem with this theory is that it violates the law of conservation of matter, which all chemical reactions obey.
fat is converted to carbon dioxide and water. You exhale the carbon dioxide and the water mixes into your circulation until it’s lost as urine or sweat.
If you lose 10kg of fat, precisely 8.4kg comes out through your lungs and the remaining 1.6kg turns into water. In other words, nearly all the weight we lose is exhaled.
This surprises just about everyone, but actually, almost everything we eat comes back out via the lungs. Every carbohydrate you digest and nearly all the fats are converted to carbon dioxide and water. The same goes for alcohol.
Protein shares the same fate, except for the small part that turns into urea and other solids, which you excrete as urine.
The only thing in food that makes it to your colon undigested and intact is dietary fibre (think corn). Everything else you swallow is absorbed into your bloodstream and organs and, after that, it’s not going anywhere until you’ve vaporised it.

Okay, just so we're on the same page here, we're still referring to ATP as an "energy" source, correct? And you would agree that beta oxidation ultimately yields ATP, correct?

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Re: keto and endurance racing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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My girlfriend is on a LCHF diet. She has a spectacular ass. Debate over.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [giddyup] [ In reply to ]
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giddyup wrote:
Nutrition science in this country is a joke. Too often, what we see is "eminence" based, rather than science or results based. Anytime I see a headline or a news article on a "new study", I am skeptical. Even abstracts can be totally misleading. Sometimes I think "peer reviewed" just means they found somebody else as stupid (or biased) as they are to review it. The methodology behind some of the epidemiology based studies is laughable. And of course, you have large companies (big ag, big food, big pharma) trying to game the system. I am skeptical of everything.

With respect to Keto and LCHF, I'd suggest you check out a couple of things. Zach Bitter on the Human Performance Outliers podcast. He is an ultra distance runner. Primarily carnivore, but has good info on his experience and when he supplements with carbs. Also look into Sami Inkinen, CEO of Virta. Virta is helping people with Type 2 diabetes without meds, through diet changes. Somewhere, I think on his blog, he talks about his experience with Low Carb and endurance including Ironman distance.

There are many good articles and podcasts out there with good information on this subject.

The evidence continues to grow that carbs are not a necessary part of the human diet, and that too many carbs in the diet leads to the epidemic of chronic disease we see today, obesity, diabetes, inflammation, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, cancer, etc... Even among athletes. But it is also true that everyone is different, and there can be variations. For example, in one presentation I watched, the speaker was a strong advocate for the carnivore diet. But she acknowledged their researched show that approx 2 to 3% of the population has a certain genetic makeup/gut biome that they could do just as well on a vegan or vegetarian diet (gave her a little more credibility in my eyes).

Find what best works for you through experimentation.

Lastly, I reserve the right to change my opinion as I acquire new data. As they say, "the mind is like a parachute, if it's not open, it won't work".

It's great to be skeptical, but it's another to misunderstand the intricacies of these things. I'm a peer reviewer; we are keenly invested in upholding the integrity of the journals that have entrusted us to review submitted materials. Further, we're experts in our respective fields, and we're quick to call BS on conclusions that are unfounded or are not representative of the data presented. If YOU happen to disagree with conclusions, that's certainly your prerogative, but the foundation is most likely methodologically solid, regardless of whether or not you agree.

And the thing with big companies....is data occasionally falsified? Of course. However, the risk of manuscript retraction is simply too high for everyone involved, including the journal, the authors and the funding body. It's a career-ending error and we've seen it play out with disastrous consequences in the media. Please be confident that financial motivations as a driver for academic malfeasance are absurdly rare.

Finally, having the ability to change your perspective and overcome biases (we all have them) when you're confronted with opposing information is one of the most admirable abilities a human can possess, in my opinion. And it extends far beyond our utterly insignificant world of triathlon into politics, economics, religion, social organization, etc. I always try to do the same, even if it means I have to uncomfortably eat my words and apologize for being wrong.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [Sasquatch] [ In reply to ]
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Sasquatch wrote:
My girlfriend is on a LCHF diet. She has a spectacular ass. Debate over.

For this, pictures will be suitable evidence.

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Re: keto and endurance racing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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No, please educate me.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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No, they are not. Nobody claimed they where. They are known for living under the most extreme conditions known to man under zchf diet.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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Yes if you want to avoid the peaks and troughs as long as you are getting in enough carbs
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Yes if you want to avoid the peaks and troughs as long as you are getting in enough carbs

The peaks and troughs of what? And what does that improve?

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Re: keto and endurance racing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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Where you get the high and low energy periods. When you go through flat spots in an Ironman they don't happen anywhere near as bad and your body is more likely to keep using a greater percentage fat as a fuel source.
Last edited by: Shambolic: May 23, 19 2:18
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Kiwi Spud] [ In reply to ]
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I may regret digging up this thread. I get that people love to debate diets both from their own perspective and from a scientific one. I'm not interested in debating the merits or pitfalls of the keto diet. I've been on the keto diet for a year now with great results.


I'm resurrecting this thread purely because I am interested in hearing from other individuals CURRENTLY OR FORMERLY ON THE KETO DIET about what they have been using on the bike and run for fuel. What's worked and what hasn't?

I get that this is ST, and by all means let me know why you still think the keto diet is not for endurance athletes if that makes you feel better, faster, smarter, or more fulfilled in some way even though I am not interested in hearing any of that.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Shambolic,

With the decrease in sugar and carbs, are you seeing a lower HR during your training sessions? I'm 8 days into trying LCHF, and have reduced my carb and sugar intake, but seeing my HR on my workouts go real low. I live in AZ so weather is hot and I've never seen my HR in ZONE 1/2 for so long.

Thanks.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [climonge] [ In reply to ]
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Re: keto and endurance racing [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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Your Link:
The fear of carbohydrates among #endurance #athletes is huge. There’s a reason many are “one pace wonders” who struggle to execute top end, like repeated accelerations during cx or criteriums. The question becomes what’s your priority, #performance or avoiding carbs? #nutrition



Top performing LCHF athletes all seem to be utilizing carb timing or the targeted ketogenic approach to maximize fat burning, fat loss in the off season, and top end performance during training and racing.

To me, this does not indicate a "fear of carbohydrates among endurance athletes", rather an understanding of them.
Also, this lady starts by talking about endurance athletes...but then mentions CX and crits? Where on Earth is a 1 hour bike race considered endurance?

It's pretty clear that a fat loss diet and an athletic performance diet are different things.
Amazing that she can charge $150 an hour if that is the type of knowledge she is bringing to the table.
Last edited by: FasterTwitch: Jul 30, 19 11:11
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Re: keto and endurance racing [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Just to put this out there...

I ran my personal best 15k race after driving 5 hours, immediatly going out to dinner with my buddy who I was running it with at around 6pm - getting REALLY drunk until about 3:30 am, then waking up after a nice 2.5 hour nap.

I ran pretty drunk. I also ate a dunkin donut, 2 draft beers in dixie cups, a shot of tequila, a breakfast sausage, and a cookie during the run (people tailgate and hand them out).


I mean I crushed it in like 1:10 or so - not fast - but hey - I was still drunk!
Science can blow me
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Just to put this out there...

I ran my personal best 15k race after driving 5 hours, immediatly going out to dinner with my buddy who I was running it with at around 6pm - getting REALLY drunk until about 3:30 am, then waking up after a nice 2.5 hour nap.

I ran pretty drunk. I also ate a dunkin donut, 2 draft beers in dixie cups, a shot of tequila, a breakfast sausage, and a cookie during the run (people tailgate and hand them out).


I mean I crushed it in like 1:10 or so - not fast - but hey - I was still drunk!
Science can blow me

Not bad for AG 75-79
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Re: keto and endurance racing [climonge] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing it for so long and probably started early into my tri career that I can't say I've noticed any difference or at least correlated it to LCHF diet anyway.
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Re: keto and endurance racing [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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A number of people have referenced science on this thread, and I feel like this article does an interesting summary of some of the research that has been conducted.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...rate-diet-endurance/

It doesn't get easier, you just get slower
https://mymsracesironman.home.blog/
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