That Cannondale R800si is the road bike i'm currently using...except mine is white

That's because your customers haven't known to ask.
I'd always assumed that the 424 was indicative a design mistake, but I just ran the XY calcs and the frame reach is ~363. So the design is fine and the geo chart is where the mistake lies.

Sorry, I don't understand...is 424 the reach for just the frame or to the bars?

I like to think of this as not just a women's problem, but a smaller person's problem. At some point, we all fit a 650 bike. Some of us kept growing, while others finished there. So, in a way, there is a market opportunity here for manufacturers to put more kids on quality, good-fitting, good handling bikes. Would a better quality bike help kids stay with cycling? I don't know. It could be a very challenging market, but I think it's worth considering. We need to keep working on the people that will be riding bikes 10-30 years from now.

Same goes for the MTB market: All the development now is going into the 27.5 and 29ers. The 26ers, while they were the standard just a few years ago, are all but drying up in manufacturer development cycles. Many have gone the route of splitting the geometry range for a given model to 27.5 and 29, but why not give us a model that has two 26", two 27.5", and two 29" geometries or something to that effect to really cover a nice range of people.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Looking at the monstrous size and weight of current mountain bikes, they are literally so clunky that I can't imagine buying one. They look too heavy to lift on top of a car, much less maneuver around on anything but a downhill course. A 26" option would be a welcome addition, at least for this rider.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

There are quite a few manufacturers focusing on light kids 24" MTBs now. Some, like trailcraft, only do that. The industry still hasn't figured riders under 165cm, the first attempt at a response was WSD - most of which are woeful. Now we're getting more attention on Kids bikes. Instead of a consistent progression in sizing and designing each size to suit the rider (crank length, stiffness, weight etc).

For the moment, I simply can't find a nice MTB for my 5' ladies to ride. Even among the small run steel builders.

Specializeds WS marketing has been terribly harmful to the cause of helping women (and the men who typically are advising them) understand the need for 650. Plus they make the Alias to force women into the badlands of a halfway between road and tri position.

As proof that I believe in front centres less than 575. This is the smallest frame I've commissioned. FC of 519. XY 333,482. The rider is 4'10.



I really wish there was a manufacturer that had the guts to make a bike like that.

Given that I get to have meetings with bike brand PMs, I ask if they'd consider making a 650c road bike. The answer so far has always been no. As I'm sure you've experienced. I'm going to keep working to find a brand that is prepared to produce a truly progressive and proportional range of bikes.

I'm not saying the that threshold for 650 is lower because it should be. Just that it can be, probably needs to be until such time as the level of market awareness improves.

Road bikes are actually more of a problem than Tri. The Threshold needs to be higher for road if you really care about handling and performance.

If the threshold is 5'5 (1650mm) 5% of men and 63% of women should be on 650.


Except the J4/F35 combo doesn't go narrow enough for most small riders to get a decent elbow width. I can at least state that aerobar options are going to get much better in the near future. Bikes will take a little longer.
On the bright side, Dolan are about to launch a 650 carbon road bike, the first new one on the market in some time. http://www.dolan-bikes.com/...himano-105-5800.html
However, it has carried over the 70deg HTA and hasn't been designed for correct crank length. But at least it's an indication that at least one brand is thinking of how to best serve riders.

Not specifically to you but to everyone on general...

I wouldn't mind a 700C road bike if they made one like my F5 with the bottom bracket an inch higher

I guess we'd better take good care of my wife's XS first generation Speed Concept. At 5'0" it was the best fit for her of any of the 650C wheeled tri bikes at the time.

Initially with the Gen 2 they offered a XS WSD, but only in the pricey 9 series. It's surprising to me that having invested in the mold they would discontinue it but I guess for a big manufacturer like Trek they have minimum sales goals they need to meet to maintain a model. In fact given how few models they now offer for the SC it seems they are either looking towards a new model or have decided not to maintain an aggressive presence in the tri space despite having one of the best offerings.

It's definitely discouraging to see the disappearance of 650C tri bikes.

"It's surprising to me that having invested in the mold they would discontinue it"

the problem is that nobody in the industry listens to the smartest people in the room, and by "nobody" i mean bike company decision makers and bike resellers.

the smartest people in the room are the engineers, typically. carl maston, jeff andrews, damon rinard, jeff soucek, anton petrov, nathan barry, murray washburn, chris you, mark cote and on and on.

i don't know what they would all say about 650 for the smaller sizes and i know that mark cote would argue for 700. but i don't know if mark would be arguing that we because he feels that way or because brand has staked out that position (which has been the correct position, in terms of the market).

what i am comfortable believing is that if the market took a hard turn in the direction of 650 specialized would rethink their current way of making women's bikes.

i do know this: those who make 650 are going to need to speak directly past the retailers, and appeal to the consumers, and probably sell directly to the consumers. retailers have in this case unfortunately been a stop sign to 650. if canyon or diamondback starts making 650 for women i think that's going to be interesting.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

When they go to go down to the nearest bike store for tyres and tubes they're going to have staff who are unable to sell them the things they need to keep their bike serviceable.

People who own 650c in 2017 (and 2018 and beyond) are going to have to be quite comfortable with ordering off Wiggle.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

you have to start (or restart) somewhere.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My LBS (three within 30 minute drive) rarely have in stock what I'm looking for anyway. Ordering off the internet for tires and tubes is the least of the issues when it comes to 650.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Great response! I'm not in the office this week but in time I want to get this line of thought to the right people here.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

"I really wish there was a manufacturer that had the guts to make a bike like that."

we have the CPSC in the U.S., it's our analog to CE and every country has this. the rule is this: the distance from the pedal axle center to any place on the front tire in the shortest-distance-configuration cannot be less than 9cm. this is for production bikes.

now, there are several issues with this. first, the rule doesn't scale, which is a problem, but that's what it is. second, you have the freedom, or lack of it, to use a shorter crank in spec. i can't see anything in the rule that requires the spec to be 170mm. however, let's say you're specialized and you just can't imagine delaying a bike because your arcane need of 165mm or shorter cranks is held up at the factory. so you put 170s on the darned thing to get it out the door. if you anticipate this, then you design your frame accordingly.

but i think we should be past all that now. it's clearly possible to make the FC 30mm shorter just by a change to 650c and a shortening of the cranks to 165, no? anybody think my math is off? that ought to take what seems to me to be specialized's firm stop sign and lower it to 545mm.

about the steeper seat angles in the smaller bikes, there is one legitimate reason for this: saddles don't scale. therefore, i see the value in normalizing for that. but i think most of the 75 and 76 degree thing has to do with playing to the old notion of top tube as an indicator of frame length. it's cynical and trades on ignorance.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Don't get me started on the goofy MTB industry "wheel size ADHD" :-/

The main reason you aren't going to be seeing MTBs in multiple wheel sizes as you would like is that they don't understand that wheel size is really just a "fit tool". They still think they have some sort of magic performance properties...

BTW, 650B should really be called 27", not 27.5"...the diameter is LESS than 1" larger than a 26" wheel. And, on that note, it really should be able to accommodate smaller riders with the 650B wheels alone. The "working radius" is only 12mm larger.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Dan, I think the decline of 650c wheel in bikes are a due to road bike designs. In my experience, triathlon bike shops are still primarily road bike shops. A large number of triathletes also ride road bikes.

In recent years, most large manufacturers have eliminated 650c wheeled road bikes from their line up. Most bike shops I know sell far more road bikes than tri-bikes. As a result, 650c tri-bikes are being affected, too. Is it possible to effectively sell 650c tri-bikes without the presence of 650c road bikes? I think it's difficult. It is interesting how these big brand manufactures still make junior bike (usually aluminum) with 650c wheels though.

btw, I am pretty sure the Orbea Ordu XS runs 700c wheels The short BB drop is there to reduce stack height without compromising head tube stiffness. See pic i grabbed from IBB multisport here

Only missed the EN 14781 89mm rule by a little bit. Felt safe in doing so as I factored small feet (that lack of scaling in the rule you mention)


I therefore wouldn't expect anyone to make exactly that geo. But a 650 designed for max crank length of 150mm can have much shorter FC than what we've currently got.
165mm cranks are way too long when you're tracking min knee angle and closed hip angle on riders this size. Again the industry is terrible at proportionality - the company that can most afford to run different sized SKUs (Shimano) doesn't make small volume hoods or decent crank length options.

The STA trading on ignorance thing really gets to me. All my small riders have to ride the saddle pushed all the way back.

I don't think these two got listed: Pro-lite makes 2 650C wheels - Bracciano 650C and Garda 650C - and Rolf Prima make the Elan which is available in 650C. I know you probably won't want to go there, but there are a few 'Chinese carbon' options for 650C wheels/rims. I still have my 650C Cervelo RS, but I am curious what it would be replaced with should it ever require a warranty replacement. (My QR private reserve kilo suffered a head tube crack.)

Toe overlap has come up, but no-one has chimed in for those of us who ride mid-foot. What is bearable toe overlap on a 700C roadbike is a nightmare when riding in a midfoot position and resulted in switching back to flat pedals. (No way I could navigate in and out of cars to get to the front at traffic lights with clipless pedals.) And IRO Shimano it is quite sad that in not offering cranks below 165 mm, they are failing half their own domestic market (average height of Japanese women - Japanese corporate structure no doubt plays a part.)

Mavic still makes the 650c Open Pro Clincher Rim

I distinctly recall Rinny raced Kona on a custom, one-off SRAM road cassette with a 10t small cog. I think that bike was even sold in the ST Classifieds.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Forgot to add Velocity to my original list. Velocity A23, Deep V, and Fusion rims are available in 650c. Also, Velocity A23 and Fusion 650c wheelsets are available today.

Lynsky

Here is the one that they/I did for my wife....

The Crazy Pink Chick Bike with Flowers (and a too short head-tube)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ink%20chick#p1611516

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Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

Did you ever find out if the Orbea Ordu is a 650C or 700C bike?