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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
TriowaCPA wrote:
MKirk wrote:
echappist wrote:
what's the format? separate categories or mass-start for all 4 categories?

double draft or normal draft?


What’s the difference between double draft and normal?


Double draft is what Zwift refers to as “true draft”—and is more closely aligned with outdoor riding, making it easier to “sit in” a group.

If you’re familiar with the “truck” powerup in game, which gives you an increased draft benefit, Double Draft is like having that powerup permanently enabled.


Thanks....so next question is how do you know if a race/event is double draft or not? Listed in the companion app event description?? If a race/event is Not double draft, does that mean if you are sitting in or out front......it's the same - so no draft effect what so ever? I'm fairly new to Zwift so still trying to figure these things out.

go here https://zwiftpower.com/events.php

double draft events have a drafting truck icon
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
3:45 am?! I question your definition of “morning”.

Normally I don't like living in the East Coast time zone, though for zwift mornings it seems like a good spot to be in. There are plenty of rides/races available every morning between 4:30-6:30 am. In fact you see a lot of the same people, kind of like our own little "breakfast club." It makes it easier to get up and ride, that's for sure.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
3:45 am?! I question your definition of “morning”.

I'll be up at 3am to pull myself together for this. I'm a little sluggish to start but come good the longer we race. Come join the fun it'll be worth it!
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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So I ended up accidentally in the A race this morning - big mistake. I’m probably high D, low C rider at the moment.

I ended up riding with a group of riders in the 100-105 placings until I got popped on the big climb on the second lap. From there I was mostly solo and rode tempo and picked off a few places to move up to 98 by the end of the third lap when I bailed. I guess technically it’s a DNF as I was listed as an A race rider and should have done four laps. I’m not sure if I’m in the ZwiftPower rankings or not as I didn’t get that sorted out until after the race.

It was an interesting experience. Haven’t quite decide if it was “fun” yet. I’ll keep giving Zwift a try for the next month to see if it sticks - I’ve always been a TrainerRoad guy.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [logella] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for coming and racing!!

I'd say this is one of the tougher courses--the climb is really brutal on that circuit and amounts to a sprint effort every lap.

You might've been in the D race, but everyone starts together--so the beginning of the race is quite chaotic for C & D categories. In the future we might change this to allow for a better race dynamic in the lower categories.

You should do some flat races (look for races on Watopia Flat / Volcano Flat / Greater London Flat / Classique / LaGuardia Loop) to get the hang of the starts, the draft and conserving energy in the pack. It takes some acclimation, but once you know how to sit in, you can go deeper on the climbs knowing recovery is coming afterwards.

Let me know if you have any questions--I can assure you the racing is "fun" even if it's painful. Today was basically a 4x1 minute max effort workout. Much better in a race than staring at the watts on my phone with TR in my opinion!
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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Can't find your events/race, searched on zwiftpower and nothing...

Can you help me out.. I could join once the TdZ is completed..
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [mathblais] [ In reply to ]
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mathblais wrote:
Can't find your events/race, searched on zwiftpower and nothing...


Can you help me out.. I could join once the TdZ is completed..


https://www.zwiftpower.com/league.php?id=60


You can also find info on The Morning Grind Fondo Instagram and Strava pages. A good source is also the Zwift Racers page on Facebook.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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Was all ready to go for this but my infant daughter had a rough night, so I was on the couch with her at 545 instead of on the trainer. Did watch some on the app though. Really looking forward to the next series, so much so I actually finally got around to buying a new front derailleur for my trainer bike. Didn’t need one with TrainerRoad.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [rjrankin] [ In reply to ]
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rjrankin wrote:
Was all ready to go for this but my infant daughter had a rough night, so I was on the couch with her at 545 instead of on the trainer. Did watch some on the app though. Really looking forward to the next series, so much so I actually finally got around to buying a new front derailleur for my trainer bike. Didn’t need one with TrainerRoad.


Ah man! That's rough. Glad you're excited about it! We're excited to make it one of the best series on Zwift.

If you're on Facebook, I really recommend joining the group DIRT (Dads Inside Riding Trainers), because well, you're exactly that it seems. Their founder helps us plan and run the series and it's just a really great group of zwifters who lead rides every day of the week.
Last edited by: TriowaCPA: Jan 16, 19 14:28
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be 100% in but I'm not sure the neighbors will like the trainer on the balcony at 3:45 am. Might have to work something out. Is there a schedule posted yet for the next series?

Also to the folks not liking the mass start- I've never once, not ever, missed the first group off the start nor have I ever seen it impact the front group negatively. What am I missing? If an A (or B for that matter) racer misses the front group that's on them yea? I'm a barely A category with zero sprinting prowess and it's only been a challenge once or twice to make the group (like the big national races but then there's enough people that it strings out like a mf'er). Who are these people who get significantly disrupted by the mass start? It would seem to be a good way to incentivize the B and C groups- hang with the front group as long as you can and almost get a guaranteed placing. Plenty of self identified B's challenge for overall podiums fairly frequently (usually sprinter freaks who can hang in there well). The vast majority of folks who seem to fall 30+ seconds off the back instantly also seem to be the group that never breaks 4-5 w/kg at the start. Yea... ride hard, it's a race. Perhaps are east coast races or other time zones playing out differently than the common west coast races?

---------------------------------------------
Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding it hurts.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [rjrankin] [ In reply to ]
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I 100% recommend DIRT. Great group of guys. In addition to racing together, we have multiple group rides everyday of the week. We also have a very active Discord channel. I've really enjoyed being a part of this group.

As an aside, if anyone is looking for a fun group ride, check out the DIRT Sprintapolooza on Fridays (there are 3 of them, an Aussie, East Coast and Pacific ride). It's a easy paced ride (around 2.2-2.5 w/kg) on one of the shorter crit/loop courses that contain a marked sprint section. Then every lap, or every other lap depending on how small the lap is, we get together in a bunch, have lead-outs and then all-out sprint the sprint sections. It's tremendous fun, probably my favorite non-race ride I do.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [maukiwauw] [ In reply to ]
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The main gripe against the mass start is primarily for the lower CAT races (B-D). It kind of takes all the strategy out of it, as the only strategy is to hold the fastest A-group you can until the finish. Whereas, in a CAT specific start, you get lead and chase groups of similar abilities which allow for some tactics (team attacks, things like that). I'm pretty much good either way, especially since I'm MOP B at best, but all things considered I prefer the separated starts.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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MRid wrote:
The main gripe against the mass start is primarily for the lower CAT races (B-D). It kind of takes all the strategy out of it, as the only strategy is to hold the fastest A-group you can until the finish. Whereas, in a CAT specific start, you get lead and chase groups of similar abilities which allow for some tactics (team attacks, things like that). I'm pretty much good either way, especially since I'm MOP B at best, but all things considered I prefer the separated starts.

this, especially when the group has 60 plus riders, and one has to weave through them just to get to the front.

nightmare...
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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The hard part for us in deciding whether or not to do separate starts was that B/C/D races wanted to race with the next grade up at the same time because it gives them the opportunity to work beyond their category...race with the “big dogs” whether that’s B cat for Cs, or A cat for Bs.

It is fun to push yourself past what you think you’re capable of, and that’s exactly how I got better—holding on for dear life as a B until I was an A.

We can take a poll of the Zwift community ahead of next race on Facebook to see what racers prefer—we aren’t attached to any set format, just want the people who race MGF to have a great time!
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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B/C/D races wanted to race with the next grade up at the same time because it gives them the opportunity to work beyond their category

Don't they have the option of self-selecting into a higher category start if that's what they want on a given day? Kind of like how I ended up accidentally in the "A" category yesterday for my first MGF ride.

Also, I recognize that I'm very new to Zwift (2 real rides, MGF yesterday and Slowtwitch this morning) but I for one did not enjoy the mix start. This morning I correctly put my self in the "D" group where I should be but almost immediately I had no idea where I was relative to most of my other "D" peeps. Sure I had some around me but I could never figure out if we were the front, middle or back of the "D" riders. Throw into the equation that there were many "C" riders around us much of the time and that added to my confusion. This morning wasn't a race but I can imagine my frustration being even higher in an actual race.

Just some humble thoughts from a Zwift beginner.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [logella] [ In reply to ]
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The confusion will go away as you get more experience. At least it did for me anyway
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
Just some humble thoughts from a Zwift beginner.

I think your thoughts are valid, and as people come to the platform they're going to be thinking the same thing--so it's healthy to discuss it!

I don't know the right answer for how to start races, but having been racing in the game for multiple years I think I have a good view of the differences. I think there's something different about the "mass start" versus "self-seeding" into a higher category. It's a more organic decision to "cat up" if it's a mass start--you might feel stronger on a given day and more willing to suffer/sit in with a higher cat. If the races are separate, self-seeded starts, then the decision to "cat up" is basically accepting that you're going to be in for a sufferfest.

I'm not sure if I explained that well, but I think psychologically I'd be a little more timid to "self-seed" myself into a higher category. But if I started a race and happened to find myself in the mix with higher cat riders, I may get the confidence to ride harder and push myself.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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As a C/D rider I would much rather have separate starts.

It’s too easy for a strong C to hang on with the B’a for 20’... by the time they are dropped they are so far ahead it’s impossible to catch them. Same goes for a strong D hiding with the weaker C’s.

Granted, a mass start is probably more realistic if that’s what you’re going for. When I line up for a gravel race I know I’m getting dropped immediately by the guys who can avg 20+ mph so I try to find people at a similar ability level to me and ride with them. What I like about Zwift is that it has the ability to take the fast guys out of the equation and results in a “cleaner” race for those of us at the back... which is something we never really get to experience in real life. It feels like we are in an actual race with a chance to win. Hopefully that makes sense.

Feel free to message me if you need any input from a back of the lack racer!
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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TriowaCPA wrote:
The hard part for us in deciding whether or not to do separate starts was that B/C/D races wanted to race with the next grade up at the same time because it gives them the opportunity to work beyond their category...race with the “big dogs” whether that’s B cat for Cs, or A cat for Bs.

It is fun to push yourself past what you think you’re capable of, and that’s exactly how I got better—holding on for dear life as a B until I was an A.

We can take a poll of the Zwift community ahead of next race on Facebook to see what racers prefer—we aren’t attached to any set format, just want the people who race MGF to have a great time!

thanks for putting efforts into this; really appreciate it

personally, the race is a bit early in the day for me (sounds like it's for 5:30 CST/CDT?), and i wouldn't be able to participate anyway

i think the main thing is that most of Zwift is ran as everyone starts altogether anyway, so that a variation in the theme would be nice

i will say though, that i felt "chain-free" on the days i hang with the A riders; similar to how i feel during the training races where i (as a cat-3) mixed it in with the cat-1 and made a difference in the race
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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You know I haven't raced zwift a lot, but after reading this thread it sounds like the mass start ends up with only one actual "race," the A race. The rest of the groups are basically just time trialing the course.

If the other groups got their own starts, then they would actually be racing and it wouldn't be just who can put out the most w/kg. If you have small fields, then group start prob makes sense. But I think your fields are large enough to support separate starts.
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
You know I haven't raced zwift a lot, but after reading this thread it sounds like the mass start ends up with only one actual "race," the A race. The rest of the groups are basically just time trialing the course.

If the other groups got their own starts, then they would actually be racing and it wouldn't be just who can put out the most w/kg. If you have small fields, then group start prob makes sense. But I think your fields are large enough to support separate starts.

pretty much this

it's the reason why USAC racing is handicapped, so that most beginners won't be rolling it in solo, as it's a really demotivating feeling (well, except for the top contenders who broke away).
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
You know I haven't raced zwift a lot, but after reading this thread it sounds like the mass start ends up with only one actual "race," the A race. The rest of the groups are basically just time trialing the course.

If the other groups got their own starts, then they would actually be racing and it wouldn't be just who can put out the most w/kg. If you have small fields, then group start prob makes sense. But I think your fields are large enough to support separate starts.


Replying to you, but also in reference to Echappist and toefuzz's comments.

I agree with you 100%--most of my local buddies who race at lower cats tend to think of the racing as "TT" efforts (and that's how their power data looks).

Separate starts if the fields are large enough does make more sense and let racers participate completely in their own race, and actually win their category more outright. Not just by losing a B cat bunch sprint but being the top C racer.
Last edited by: TriowaCPA: Jan 17, 19 8:39
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Ohio_Roadie wrote:
mathblais wrote:
Can't find your events/race, searched on zwiftpower and nothing...


Can you help me out.. I could join once the TdZ is completed..


https://www.zwiftpower.com/league.php?id=60


You can also find info on The Morning Grind Fondo Instagram and Strava pages. A good source is also the Zwift Racers page on Facebook.


Here are the important links for now!

Strava
Instagram
Facebook
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
Any other ways to keep track of it, I’ll forget by Feb and rarely use IG.

Facebook Group: Morning Grind Fondo
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Re: Zwift Race Series: Morning Grind Fondo p/b NormaTec and SBRrockr [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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FYI - I did a race this morning that A-D groups. However, they separated the starts by 1 min each. It was really nice knowing that everyone around me was also a D (36 riders). After about a half mile at the start of hard riding things settled down into a nice lead group of 10 or so. I was holding steady until I had a tough time with the high winds. High winds in my area blew the door to the garage open and I had to jump off to close the door to prevent the cat from wandering off. I lost the lead group of course and settled in with a smaller group for the final couple of laps.
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