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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks everyone for chiming in. It gives me some numbers to aim for over the winter.

I moved up to the 1:35 group in masters and held a 1:21 pace (1:19-1:23) when we did 10x100yd about 3 weeks ago. I decided to do 2x500yd on the 8 minute this morning just to get a baseline of sorts. Went 7:15 and 7:14 and didn’t feel gassed at all (could’ve done a 3rd at that pace for sure). So I feel like I’m heading in the right direction (my PB for a HIM is 34:30). 7 more months to keep improving.

Matt
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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I can do a HIM swim in 33 mins.

Back in the summer my daughter did a 2km open water swim race in 27 mins.

She's 12.

Yeah, it made me feel pretty useless by comparison.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
Sean H wrote:
ripple wrote:
1000scy time trial 14:00 has a shot. 13:30 you're a slam dunk. I'd say this because, even as a swimmer, if I'm in whatever "1000 shape" I'm in, the time drop for the next 1000 is nominal. It's difficult to extrapolate 500, 200, 100, 50's on intervals into a 1.2 miler because it's hard to quantify how much your repeats benefit from rest time in strength, stamina, and mechanics.


I think 13:30 for 1k yards TT is right. Should be able to swim 30 min and not kill yourself doing it.


So thats what my 1k TT should be!!!! Challenge for 2019 accepted! Broken clavicle to 13:30 challenge.

Are you going to join Tower 26? We will do a baseline 1kTT in early January, then do a huge build and retest in April. Last year I was 13:30 in yards in January, then went 12:53 for meters in April. You need to do this!

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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for starting the thread as it's been a question in my mind recently and also gives me something to aim for this winter.

I just did the 4x500 (scy) test yesterday and averaged 7:23 (probably could have gone a bit faster but would have too high an HR upon completing). Which fits about right with my 32-33 70.3 history. But for the first time, I am getting regular private lessons and joining a masters group so I hope to cut that down over the next few months.

808 > NYC > PDX
2019: 70.3 Canada, 70.3 WC, IMLou
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Toothengineer wrote:
Sean H wrote:
ripple wrote:
1000scy time trial 14:00 has a shot. 13:30 you're a slam dunk. I'd say this because, even as a swimmer, if I'm in whatever "1000 shape" I'm in, the time drop for the next 1000 is nominal. It's difficult to extrapolate 500, 200, 100, 50's on intervals into a 1.2 miler because it's hard to quantify how much your repeats benefit from rest time in strength, stamina, and mechanics.


I think 13:30 for 1k yards TT is right. Should be able to swim 30 min and not kill yourself doing it.


So thats what my 1k TT should be!!!! Challenge for 2019 accepted! Broken clavicle to 13:30 challenge.


Are you going to join Tower 26? We will do a baseline 1kTT in early January, then do a huge build and retest in April. Last year I was 13:30 in yards in January, then went 12:53 for meters in April. You need to do this!

Yes using Dec just to get back in water and back to some baseline. Tower 26 starting Jan 1st.

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2019: IMTX, Rookie, 70.3 Worlds, Lifetime Oly
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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we are doing lots of technical stuff right now that would definitely do you good...

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I PM me for 25% off discount code at everymanjack.com
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Me either. Let's just catch them on the bike.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [TriathlonJoe] [ In reply to ]
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TriathlonJoe wrote:
Me either. Let's just catch them on the bike.

I have had this strategy for many years, it does not always work. When I watched Sean put 50m gap into me this year at Buffalo in the first 100m I had the hard realization something needed to change.

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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
ripple wrote:
1000scy time trial 14:00 has a shot. 13:30 you're a slam dunk. I'd say this because, even as a swimmer, if I'm in whatever "1000 shape" I'm in, the time drop for the next 1000 is nominal. It's difficult to extrapolate 500, 200, 100, 50's on intervals into a 1.2 miler because it's hard to quantify how much your repeats benefit from rest time in strength, stamina, and mechanics.


I think 13:30 for 1k yards TT is right. Should be able to swim 30 min and not kill yourself doing it.

I want to take a chance and ask a little bit of the opposite question:

If my 1000 yard TT is around 15:20, what can I expect for a HIM swim? Like a 35?
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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I was using that as well for about a decade. It worked alright for local races. But the problem that I ran into with with IM brand races is that when you’ve got the 300th swim split but the 10th best bike split (both not including pros of course...), you have to pass a shitload of people. While passing is fun, it’s a PITA when people are riding two or three wide or or just not staying to the right when not passing. Yelling “on your left” takes energy and slowing down and speeding up to pass through the crowd takes more energy vs just riding goal watts.

But what really nailed me was that the last 70.3 I did I was focused so much on passing slower riders so I could get into some “open road” that I didn’t take in any lytes, water or calories until mile 24 on a hot day. This led to cramping on the last climb on the bike (lost time there) and then cramping on the run that was so bad I had so lay on the side of the road for 3-4 minutes massaging both hip flexors before I could stand up and start moving again. Obviously me not paying attention/following my plan was the culprit, but if I could come out in at least 30-31m that would put me in the 50-80 range. So lots of less people to pass meaning more mental energy to my own race nd hopefully less dumb errors.

So even though it seems counterintuitive to currently spend 1/3 of my training hours on swimming since it might only represent 1/8 or 1/9 of my race, I think at this point I need to try something different than the old way to break trough to that next level. So from October until March it’s swimming 1hr on M-F mornings before work.

Matt
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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You might take a look at http://www.swimpacecalculator.com and do the benchmark test there. Much like the run extrapolation websites that can predict marathon times, this does the same for the swim.

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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
I want to take a chance and ask a little bit of the opposite question:

If my 1000 yard TT is around 15:20, what can I expect for a HIM swim? Like a 35?

I’ll have to look in my training log (it’s on my home computer and I’m at work now), but my last HIM swim I went 34:30 and I did a 1000yd TT 2 months prior which was just a few seconds over 15.

Matt
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [coachjustin] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, but that calculator does no good for what the OP is asking. He want to know what kind of pool times he needs to do a 30m HIM swim with a wetsuit, in the draft, in OW...
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [coachjustin] [ In reply to ]
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I have not seen that before. Looks kinda like the McMillan running calculator. I had wondering if someone had ever made one for swimming. Thanks for sharing

Matt
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
I was using that as well for about a decade. It worked alright for local races. But the problem that I ran into with with IM brand races is that when you’ve got the 300th swim split but the 10th best bike split (both not including pros of course...), you have to pass a shitload of people. While passing is fun, it’s a PITA when people are riding two or three wide or or just not staying to the right when not passing. Yelling “on your left” takes energy and slowing down and speeding up to pass through the crowd takes more energy vs just riding goal watts.

But what really nailed me was that the last 70.3 I did I was focused so much on passing slower riders so I could get into some “open road” that I didn’t take in any lytes, water or calories until mile 24 on a hot day. This led to cramping on the last climb on the bike (lost time there) and then cramping on the run that was so bad I had so lay on the side of the road for 3-4 minutes massaging both hip flexors before I could stand up and start moving again. Obviously me not paying attention/following my plan was the culprit, but if I could come out in at least 30-31m that would put me in the 50-80 range. So lots of less people to pass meaning more mental energy to my own race nd hopefully less dumb errors.

So even though it seems counterintuitive to currently spend 1/3 of my training hours on swimming since it might only represent 1/8 or 1/9 of my race, I think at this point I need to try something different than the old way to break trough to that next level. So from October until March it’s swimming 1hr on M-F mornings before work.

Yep same kinda of spot. I am normally 10-20th in my AG out of the water in WTC races. But losing minutes to the front end guys and I dont run fast enough to make up the time. Locally I lose enough time out of the water I take myself out of any contention to win automatically no matter how fast I bike. So I am like you have said committing 1/3 of my training time in 2019 to Swimming and trying to close that gap down. I have decided its worth it plus its getting harder trying to find places to gain time.

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2019: IMTX, Rookie, 70.3 Worlds, Lifetime Oly
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
Sean H wrote:
ripple wrote:
1000scy time trial 14:00 has a shot. 13:30 you're a slam dunk. I'd say this because, even as a swimmer, if I'm in whatever "1000 shape" I'm in, the time drop for the next 1000 is nominal. It's difficult to extrapolate 500, 200, 100, 50's on intervals into a 1.2 miler because it's hard to quantify how much your repeats benefit from rest time in strength, stamina, and mechanics.


I think 13:30 for 1k yards TT is right. Should be able to swim 30 min and not kill yourself doing it.


I want to take a chance and ask a little bit of the opposite question:

If my 1000 yard TT is around 15:20, what can I expect for a HIM swim? Like a 35?
Assuming wetsuit legal, accurate course, calm conditions, I'd say high 33/ low 34m. Even if your 2nd 1000 tails off 10% you are still holding 1:40 pace. Disclaimer: It's always dangerous to extrapolate in the kind of time range you're talking about. If you've got distance freestyle age groupers ripping off 1:05's on the 1:15, you have a real good idea what they're going in the 1000 or the 1650 and even a 1 or 2 mile postal swim. They have the technique and the stamina. If you're a 1:25-1:30 100 scy pool swimmer, there's a much wider margin of error. I wouldn't extrapolate on any distance less than 1000 for the average AOS OWS.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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I was typically around 28-29 and used the following as a benchmark (nothing special):

20 x 100scy on 1:30, avg 1:15, for scm i think that was around a 1:22-1:23 on 1:40

http://riseabovecyclingpodcast.podbean.com/
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.2 miles is just a hair under 2000 yards, right?

So if you can do 20 x 1:30 and simply make the interval, even if you're only getting a second's rest per 100, you're already sub 30.

That's how I've always viewed it.. take whatever interval you can hold for the equivalent...

I know when I'm in swim shape and holding 1:10/100scy in the pool I'm about a 24 HIM wetsuit swim, and when I'm a 1:20 I'm more a 27...

I guess I'm saying you don't really need to over think it: instead of doing benchmark tests, just test by swimming the entire distance as a time trial. It's 2k yards, it's not like you are risking injury. If it takes you >30 min, you have work to do..
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.2 miles is just a hair under 2000 yards, right?

So if you can do 20 x 1:30 and simply make the interval, even if you're only getting a second's rest per 100, you're already sub 30.

That's how I've always viewed it.. take whatever interval you can hold for the equivalent...

I know when I'm in swim shape and holding 1:10/100scy in the pool I'm about a 24 HIM wetsuit swim, and when I'm a 1:20 I'm more a 27...

I guess I'm saying you don't really need to over think it: instead of doing benchmark tests, just test by swimming the entire distance as a time trial. It's 2k yards, it's not like you are risking injury. If it takes you >30 min, you have work to do..

I personally was always slower in open water. I seemed to swim about 10sec per 100 slower in OW vs pool.

http://riseabovecyclingpodcast.podbean.com/
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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2112 yards. I think the point of the OP was he/she wasn't looking to do a 1.2mi TT. If you're going 1:10 and a 24:xx half, that's a way different level than aiming for 30m. You fall into the category of swimmer that can extrapolate 100s. What's your pool 1000 when you're going 24:xx? That's a stout swim.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.2 miles is just a hair under 2000 yards, right?

1.2 miles
2112 yards
1931 meters
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [fierceSun] [ In reply to ]
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fierceSun wrote:
davejustdave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.2 miles is just a hair under 2000 yards, right?

1.2 miles
2112 yards
1931 meters

That's great! All these years I've been doing it wrong. In HS meets we always called the 1650 SCY race the mile. Been bragging I used to do the mile when I'd been shorting it by 110 yards all these years.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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Its "The Mile" not a mile :) same term used for 1500m in here

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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
2112 yards. I think the point of the OP was he/she wasn't looking to do a 1.2mi TT. If you're going 1:10 and a 24:xx half, that's a way different level than aiming for 30m. You fall into the category of swimmer that can extrapolate 100s. What's your pool 1000 when you're going 24:xx? That's a stout swim.

Thanks! It was actually a 23 high, but with an incoming tide so I call it 24. As far as a 1000 pool TT, I don't know. Never do 1000s in the pool for time. 10 or 15 x 100 on 1:10 are a standard set. I usually come in on 1:05- 1:07 If I do 500s as a solid swim when in shape I come in about 5:35-5:40 on a 6 min interval. That's working harder than I do in a tri.

Swam on teams from age of 6 through start of college so my metric of "in shape" is different than average.
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Re: What benchmarks would I need to go sub-30 in a half-IM swim? [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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You must be a distance swimmer. I can't do that shit.. 100s with 5s rest. I get a lot of benefit from wetsuit in OWS I think, because I can do 1:12-1:15 on 1:30 all day.. good not great, but am at 26:xx for a half right now. If I did 100s on 1:20 it'd turn into a 1:18 pace death march.. which certainly is not 26:xx material. That's why I always say it's tough to extrapolate 100s. I haven't done a 1000 in a while but 6:30 is a comfy 500.. which also doesn't suggest a 26:xx. Wetsuit ftw.
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