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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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How much rest on a set of 25s? How many reps?
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
How much rest on a set of 25s? How many reps?

30 second interval, so ~16 seconds rest. I'll do an offering of 30 reps, Usually get to between the high teens and mid twenties before failing the set.

If it's the second set of a workout, I'll do a 35 second interval. Otherwise, the accumulated fatigue leads to rapid failure, and insufficient volume of specific work.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks.

I found it in Rushall's PDF, on page 34, right as you posted this. :-) 15s for sub-25m/y, 20s for 50m/y and above. Oddly more difficult to find in that document than I was expecting it to be----And MUCH farther into it, which might account for my difficulty in finding it. I was looking towards the front of the document, thinking it would be front and center.

Ok, so 30x25y USRPT (15s) @ 100y race-pace.

I'm trying to wrap my head around a single 500-750y mainset, when my more standard sets are in the 1200-2200 range. But, I suppose its probably a good idea to do it as a standalone workout and see how I feel before I think about what/if to add to it.

Do you do anything different in warmup to be ready for the intensity of the 25s?
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my head around a single 500-750y mainset, when my more standard sets are in the 1200-2200 range. But, I suppose its probably a good idea to do it as a standalone workout and see how I feel before I think about what/if to add to it.

It's common for swimmers to race more than a single event at a meet, different strokes, different distances. A USRPT workout might have 1-4 main sets, each targeting a different race.
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:


I'm trying to wrap my head around a single 500-750y mainset, when my more standard sets are in the 1200-2200 range. But, I suppose its probably a good idea to do it as a standalone workout and see how I feel before I think about what/if to add to it.

Do you do anything different in warmup to be ready for the intensity of the 25s?


When you think of it in terms of total distance at race pace relative to the length of the race you're training for, it's actually more than you'd typically do for a 400/500/800/1000/1500/1650.

I don't do anything special to warm up, but I do sprint training regularly. The 100 free is me favorite event, if not my best event. Even when it's not the primary event I'm training for, I keep it in my repertoire.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 8, 18 7:58
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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When you think of it in terms of total distance at race pace relative to the length of the race you're training for, it's actually more than you'd typically do for a 400/500/800/1000/1500/1650. //


No lie.

I did the set today. Failed once at #10. Finished out the remainder of the 30 close to 19 flat without anymore failures. I was able to push the pace forward for the last 3x 25s to. Low 18.x. Slo I was probably a hair slow. But my back is smoked, and I'm still pretty tired 3 hours later.

Pace was a bit up and down, since I'm not used to swimming that hard and judging the intensity. Also timing with my garmin is a bit variable. Touching with my watch hand and hitting the button with my recovery hand just isn't very precise. A few 10ths matters.

I think you said you use some kind of finger thingy?


Curious what is typical drop-off for these usrpt sets?

20x25: 1:17/100 pace
20x50: 1:26/100 pace
20x100: 1:39/100 pace
4x400: 1:43/100 pace (not usrpt)
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Dec 8, 18 16:47
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Ditch the watch, the pool clock is all you need. I swim noticeably better when i don't try and bother with hitting buttons. Also, I've been swimming a long time and the only time tenths matters is in a race, never been an issue with training.
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Pool doesn't have a pace clock.

Besides I like my garmin. It shows that I'm a triathlete. And does all that cool Garmin-y stuff. :-)

The only point about the tenths is assessing failure for the usrpt set. A full second is a big difference in pace for a 25, yes?

Looking back at my times for the set you can see that they start around 18.9 and climb slowly up to 19.9. None of which I could see while swimming, until it tripped over to 20.1.

It's not really the 10ths, but the 1/2 second or so that let's me see I'm slowing down... And with refocus or take a rest.
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Ditch the watch, the pool clock is all you need. I swim noticeably better when i don't try and bother with hitting buttons. Also, I've been swimming a long time and the only time tenths matters is in a race, never been an issue with training.


Depends what your objective is and the methods you are using. For USPRT, especially for any repeats shorter than 100, precise timing is essential. When doing 25's at 100 race pace, the difference between 14.10 and 14.90 might be the difference between "You're right on target" and "You're so far off the pace, you should pack it up and go home immediately."




Tom_hampton wrote:
Also timing with my garmin is a bit variable. Touching with my watch hand and hitting the button with my recovery hand just isn't very precise. A few 10ths matters.

I think you said you use some kind of finger thingy?


SportCount Finger Stopwatch. Cheap, simple, accurate, precise, repeatable.


Tom_hampton wrote:


Curious what is typical drop-off for these usrpt sets?

20x25: 1:17/100 pace
20x50: 1:26/100 pace
20x100: 1:39/100 pace
4x400: 1:43/100 pace (not usrpt)



20x25: :56/100 pace
20x50 1:04/100 pace
20x100 1:13/100 pace
4x400 1:16/100 pace
(All SCY)

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 9, 18 8:41
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Well that's interesting.

So you have a 14% fall off from usrpt 25 to 50 to 100...and a 4% from usrpt 100 to 4x400. I'm pretty much the same except for the 25 to 50 which is only 11%.... Just 20s slower :-). But, since I just started the 25s, it's probably expected they might be relatively underdeveloped (slow). Also, that percent difference is only 1/2 second and I've already noted my timing issues with my watch.

For giggles I looked up men's WR from 50 to 200.... Fall off is about 10% for each doubling for the world's best.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Dec 8, 18 19:40
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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There's a typical drop off, but you're outside what would be in the norm. You need to do more of the faster, shorter repeats. It's probably a combination of swimming alone without a coach on the deck and other swimmers in the water to push you and you haven't gotten comfortable being uncomfortable in the water.

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. I agree with your comment about not being "comfortable being uncomfortable." that had been my thought process behind adding the 400s... To get over the mental aspect of swimming harder for longer.

But, I did the 25s yesterday as you suggested. That's a solid workout! I'm quite sore today in my obliques. My back is mostly just fatigued.

I was supposed to have a session with Bobby today, but he had to reschedule at the last minute until next week. That's probably jast as well, I'm not sure I'd be swimming my best since I underestimated the effects of the 25s.

Above you mentioned doing easy recovery swims on alternate days instead of drills. Can you suggest something?
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the thing with the 400s, you won't be swimming harder. That's part of the reason why you want to do short, fast repeats.

Here's a 2000 yard set that's is based off a meet warm up my coach used to give me:

400 swim w/fins
400 kick w/fins
400 pull

8x50 choice (whatever you want to do) @ 15 seconds rest

4x100 descend 1-4 @ your interval

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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A short update. I switched out the 400s in favor of the 25s, as suggested. Currently my week looks like this:

Mon: 30x50 USRPT
Tue: 20x50 chords
Wed: 1600y recovery swim
Thu: 30x100 USRPT
Fri: 1600y recovery swim
Sat: 30x25 USRPT
Sun: 15x50 chords

Current USRPT set Paces (first failure/total completed at pace):
USRPT.25: 18.2 (#14/24) 1:13pace
USRPT.50: 42.5 (#21/30) 1:25pace
USRPT.100: 1:34 (#12/21) 1:34pace


I'm guessing that the USRPT.50 set would really be at 1:23pace for a failure in the 12-14 range (similar to the 25s and 100s). That would put my fall off over distance at 12% per doubling between 25/50/100.

I missed 6 days around Christmas, it took me a about 5 days to get back to pace, and begin to see improvements over paces/reps before the break. Last week was largely re-plowing the ground I'd plowed before the break. This week was the first uptick over my last swims of 2018.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jan 11, 19 9:18
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I'd take a day off at least once a week. And add in some variety. Don't get put in a straight jacket of the USRPT protocol. Variety is important for your brain.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
I'd take a day off at least once a week. And add in some variety. Don't get put in a straight jacket of the USRPT protocol. Variety is important for your brain.

That's kinda funny. I considered the recovery swims, adding in the 25s, and chords to be "variety".
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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This reply isn't specific to you Tom, although you might be able to help.

I'm just getting back into the water after a prolonged time off. I've been swimming for a couple of weeks and am starting to remember how to do so... haven't drowned yet so that's a plus.

My question in regards to USRPT is how do you go about setting your target time? I've read some articles on how to set it for competitive swimmers, but it doesn't directly apply to a triathlete (or aquabiker in my case). Please forgive me if it's been asked and answered, but after skimming the thread I didn't see it. I have an Oly swim in May and my goal is to not embarrass myself... any suggestions on how I would determine my target intervals? I was going to take my goal pace for the May race and use that for 50's (for example, if I wanted to average 1:40/100y I could start with 50 seconds per 50 plus 20 seconds rest)... start out with 20x50 and see if I can hit the intervals using the USRPT principles (miss 1 sit the next out, miss 2 go home I believe). If I tried that and found I can only get 10 intervals in then I know it might be a bit aggressive. If I can hit all 20 (unlikely) then I know I want to go a little faster. I have the linked pdf bookmarked for reading tonight, but thought I'd throw this out there for some advice before I hit the pool tomorrow as I doubt I'll be able to read the entire pdf tonight.

Thanks for any help you might be able to offer!
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:

My question in regards to USRPT is how do you go about setting your target time? I've read some articles on how to set it for competitive swimmers, but it doesn't directly apply to a triathlete (or aquabiker in my case). Please forgive me if it's been asked and answered, but after skimming the thread I didn't see it. I have an Oly swim in May and my goal is to not embarrass myself... any suggestions on how I would determine my target intervals? I was going to take my goal pace for the May race and use that for 50's (for example, if I wanted to average 1:40/100y I could start with 50 seconds per 50 plus 20 seconds rest)... start out with 20x50 and see if I can hit the intervals using the USRPT principles (miss 1 sit the next out, miss 2 go home I believe). If I tried that and found I can only get 10 intervals in then I know it might be a bit aggressive. If I can hit all 20 (unlikely) then I know I want to go a little faster.


Trial and error is what I had to do when I started using USRPT, as I really didn't have relevant race results to work with. Didn't take long to zero in on target times that were appropriate. If you don't get to the mid-teens before failing out, your target was probably too aggressive. If you get to the end of the set (30 reps), or even close (high 20's), you probably need to advance the pace.

Either way, you'll probably be readjusting on a pretty regular basis for a while since you're coming from a low swim fitness state, but suggest that you have some previous swim training.

For an Oly swim, I think you ultimately want to work yourself up to being able to do 15-20 x 125 at a pace that's 3-4sec/100 faster than your targeted race pace before any adjustments for pool vs. open water. For example, If I wanted to swim 1:40/100 in a non wetsuit legal open water Oly swim leg, I'd feel like I need to be able to swim a 1500 @ ~1:33/100 in the pool at less than full effort, which means I'd want to be able to swim a 1500 @ 1:29/100 at max effort. For me, 15-20 x 125 is a bellwether set for an all-out 1500m/1650y/1-mile race effort pace .

There are a couple ways to come at this. By-the-book USRPT would tell you to do 125's at whatever pace you can now, and work your target times down. Or you can work your target pace at shorter distances, then go incrementally longer (in other words, master your goal pace doing 50's, then 75's, then 100's, then 125's.) I've had success both ways. If you're coming from a low fitness state, I'd work pace first, and worry about distance/endurance later. If you start to plateau before you get to 125's, come at it from the other end, doing 125's at whatever pace you can sustain and trying to get faster from there.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Feb 20, 19 13:38
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing exclusively USRPT swim workouts since late December. My focus through the first part of this year is pool meets, specifically a 1650y race this coming Sunday and a session with 500 free, 200 free, 200 fly the following week. I have a a huge "base:" former college swimmer, and IM, marathons, and long-distance pool and OWS since. I felt like I could change it up and see what happens. I had a 1500m short pool swim in December, and I just didn't have any "pop" in that race.

From the literature by Rushall, there is still a big aerobic training component doing this kind of practice. The metabolic and circulation systems don't just transition cleanly from pure sprints (Creatine-Phosphate system) to long spring (ATP plus glucose) to aerobic lipolysis (long efforts). There's still aspects of each going on in each of the training repeats, even doing 25's and 50's.

Most of my access is to a 25 yard pool with warm water, narrow lanes, shallow depth, and lots of chop.

If I'm doing 100's or 50's, I just set my old Timex IM watch timer function for the total time I need to get, pace + :20 rest and set on repeat. I should see :20 on every count-down on the watch. No reset needed on each.

100's: set the watch for 1:27y or 1:35m, for intended mile pace of 1:07y or 1:15m.
50's: :31y or 34m for 500y or 400m

I also do 75's (mile pace) and 25's (200 free and fly). I set the watch for 1:10y/1:15m or :35y (:40 for fly), and couple it with the pace clock, so I see the pace clock on the far side, and the watch on the near side.

I also found that the new suit I got the other day has slowed me about :01-:02/ 100. It's one of those TYR polymesh suits, whereas before I was wearing a square-leg endurance fiber suit that was more snug.

Later on this year, I plan to transition to some longer pool and OWS swims, but also come on back down to swim USMS Long course nationals in Mission Viejo in August. I doubt my distance base will be affected.

Currently, my RHR is about 48 and my BP is about 110/70.
Last edited by: 140triguy: Feb 20, 19 19:06
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Gary and Tim are the experts....way more than me. So, I can only relay my experiences over the last year.

Gary already hit the pacing bit. The reality is that you just need to pick a pace, and work from there. If you've done a race in the not to distant past, then use that race pace as your starting point. If you complete all 30, next time subtract 3s/100. If you only manage 8 or something before you fail...add 2s/100 next time out. It won't take long to find the sweet spot.

My other experience is that with USRPT you need the swim base or endurance to be able to complete the set before you will see gains from the set. What I mean by that is that if you don't already do 30x100 or some other version of 3000y+ in a swim, then initially you may not see gains in pace in a 30x100 USRPT set. It seems to take 2-3 weeks of working the set distance before I start to see measureable progress by USRPT standards.

I tried starting with short repeats last year, and working up to longer repeats. I started with 25s, then 50s, then 75s and ultimately 100s. I did each for about 6 weeks before graduating to the next length. In each case when moving to the next distance, I saw a plateau (or even a backslide) in pace at the new distance for about 3 weeks. After that, I would begin to see improvement (increases in time to first-fail, eventually leading to upgrades in pace once I exceeded the 20 minimum).

I would also caution against upgrading to the next pace too quickly. Be sure that you've really got the current pace "in the bag" before pushing to the next level. There have been a few times when I just barely made the 20, and upgraded the next time out....only to fail out really early (like #8 or some such). You should be able to cruise past #20 without too much effort....maybe failing in the low-mid 20s...before upping the pace.

I think a good pace increment is about 1s/50.

I like the structure of working several different repeat distances in a week. As noted above, I'm currently doing 25s, 50s, and 100s. I think they all complement each other. The 25s help the 50s, and the 50s help the 100s. I do one set of each, most every week. But, recovery from each is key, as is being fresh from any bike or run. I've taken to scheduling my hard bike/run workouts immediately AFTER my USRPT swim days, and leaving 24-36 hours before the next USRPT swim.

When I've done nothing but the same repeat distance (eg, all 100s), I plateau pretty quickly.
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I am going to experiment with it tomorrow... it’s somewhat liberating hitting the pool without an IM I’m mind. I feel like I have more time to experiment and just enjoy myself. I think I will just pick a pace and see how it goes and adjust from there. I love the idea of the 125’s, if only to mess with people by stopping on the wrong end of the pool!
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
I love the idea of the 125’s, if only to mess with people by stopping on the wrong end of the pool!

Ugh! I hate that! Messes with me when I do it... And when other people do it and we are sharing a lane. :=P
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Yesterday, I tried X x 100y @ 1:27 (goal pace 1:07 for the 1650 or OWS mile). I felt like crap and I was pretty slow, and hung it up after 12 or so. I thought that maybe the suit I had was dragging me, since it is a TYR polymesh suit that's a bit too big.

Today, I did 40 x 50y with the repeat timer on my watch set at :54, to get that extra 0:00.5/50 that I thought the suit slowed me down (intended pace was :33-34). I ended up rocking them all at about :32. I saw :22 on every finish, and just stopped at 40 for 2000y race pace. I was also trying to be a bit smoother and work on my turns, so maybe that was why I was faster than yesterday. I tried to hammer the last two 50's as a test of concept of really closing the race fast. I put in much more effort for sure, but wasn't that much faster at all. Just shows that the important thing about a mile is closing smooth, and the speed will take care of itself.

I think what's NOT included in the literature by Rushall is that an extended amount of repeats allows for slight technique variations and strategies in each repeat. That's actually what happens in 1500m/1650y pool races and OWS, where racers are doing different things at different stages, and adapting/reacting to those changes are essential. I would think this is particularly important in OWS, as water conditions change, perhaps requiring shorter or longer strokes, or maybe a swimmer's plan is to hammer 200m every 1000m or so. Something to think about: you can try slight changes in tempo, kick, stroke pattern, breathing, etc, to mimic race conditions.
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
I was also trying to be a bit smoother and work on my turns, so maybe that was why I was faster than yesterday.


Well, that, and the fact that your work:rest ratio was much more conducive to going faster ;)

I use 50's on ~20 seconds rest for back-half-of-200 race pace training, although I'm obviously not making 40 at that pace.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Feb 21, 19 15:29
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Re: USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
I like the structure of working several different repeat distances in a week. As noted above, I'm currently doing 25s, 50s, and 100s. I think they all complement each other. The 25s help the 50s, and the 50s help the 100s. I do one set of each, most every week. But, recovery from each is key, as is being fresh from any bike or run. I've taken to scheduling my hard bike/run workouts immediately AFTER my USRPT swim days, and leaving 24-36 hours before the next USRPT swim.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on how you're interleaving this with bike/run?

I normally keep the frequency of disciplines the same throughout the year (3/5/6 swim/bike/run) & move the volume/intensity around depending on the current focus.

Swimming is now easily my weakest leg, so I'm looking for ways to jiggle the schedule around, slotting in an extra swim & improve the quality of the others (2 of them are normally just 5x500's).
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