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Re: Tabata Protocol... [lcparlatto] [ In reply to ]
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lcparlatto wrote:
Hi there... Would like to know your thoughts about it and if you add then to your
training routine? For instance once a week, once in a month...

Have searched in the Forum, but only found examples of HIIT training and not really about the Tabata protocol (warm up, 8x20s+10s active rest and warm down).

Yesterday I did it for the first time, it was really painfull, when it was the 5th interval it was hurting pretty bad, I was able to finish all the 8 sets, just to see watts dropping from 612 to 483.

What are your experiences? Thanks!

I thought about this more and wanted to ask, is that your beginning peak or an actual average over all 20 seconds?

I'm pretty sure the local Cat 3 or even faster crit boys aren't doing Tabatas with an average for a 4min (8x 30sec) set of close to 400w including the 10s rest and 20s peaks.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
RChung wrote:
Sometimes some people have a hard time figuring out when to stop digging so they can use a little help:
now. Now is the time to stop digging.


LOL.

I always enjoy when people who *think* they know what they are talking about, argue with people who actually *know* what they are talking about.
Those in the former group, never seem to understand that they are indeed in that former group, and not the latter.

A consequence of the well studied Dunning Kruger effect...
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [lcparlatto] [ In reply to ]
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It works well for swimming as well, assuming you can swim 25 repeats in 20 seconds or faster.

I bastardize it a little and usually do my 25m freestyle repeats on 25 swimming each rep in 15, which allows 10 seconds rest.

Texas men do a variation in this workout.



___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
It works well for swimming as well, assuming you can swim 25 repeats in 20 seconds or faster.

I bastardize it a little and usually do my 25m freestyle repeats on 25 swimming each rep in 15, which allows 10 seconds rest.

I started doing 30x25 (15s) in 19+s in early December, USRPT style. Not quite the work:rest ratio quoted above, but close.

That same week, I was also doing USRPT 30x100 (20s) at 1:39pace.

Fast-forward to today:

I've dropped 1s off the 25s (~18s), and 5s off the 100s (1:34). That includes the impacts of not swimming for 6 days from the 23rd to the 29th (I did use chords a couple times in that span, though).
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
lcparlatto wrote:
Hi there... Would like to know your thoughts about it and if you add then to your
training routine? For instance once a week, once in a month...

Have searched in the Forum, but only found examples of HIIT training and not really about the Tabata protocol (warm up, 8x20s+10s active rest and warm down).

Yesterday I did it for the first time, it was really painfull, when it was the 5th interval it was hurting pretty bad, I was able to finish all the 8 sets, just to see watts dropping from 612 to 483.

What are your experiences? Thanks!


I thought about this more and wanted to ask, is that your beginning peak or an actual average over all 20 seconds?

I'm pretty sure the local Cat 3 or even faster crit boys aren't doing Tabatas with an average for a 4min (8x 30sec) set of close to 400w including the 10s rest and 20s peaks.
I don't think I'm particularly good at Tabatas (I do more like 150-160% of FTP) but my experience was actually pretty similar to the above. First time around I started at around 600 (for the on periods) and fell to mid or even low 400s, while I died a painful death. Now I do ~525 for the on periods and keep it up the whole way. AP ends up somewhere near 400w for the 4 minutes (my off periods are not zero because I do them on a hill).
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Nice work.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
lcparlatto wrote:
Hi there... Would like to know your thoughts about it and if you add then to your
training routine? For instance once a week, once in a month...

Have searched in the Forum, but only found examples of HIIT training and not really about the Tabata protocol (warm up, 8x20s+10s active rest and warm down).

Yesterday I did it for the first time, it was really painfull, when it was the 5th interval it was hurting pretty bad, I was able to finish all the 8 sets, just to see watts dropping from 612 to 483.

What are your experiences? Thanks!


I thought about this more and wanted to ask, is that your beginning peak or an actual average over all 20 seconds?

I'm pretty sure the local Cat 3 or even faster crit boys aren't doing Tabatas with an average for a 4min (8x 30sec) set of close to 400w including the 10s rest and 20s peaks.

I don't think I'm particularly good at Tabatas (I do more like 150-160% of FTP) but my experience was actually pretty similar to the above. First time around I started at around 600 (for the on periods) and fell to mid or even low 400s, while I died a painful death. Now I do ~525 for the on periods and keep it up the whole way. AP ends up somewhere near 400w for the 4 minutes (my off periods are not zero because I do them on a hill).

Then you guys are beasts. I know very few people local with ~350w ftp's.

ST being a bit of an anomaly versus the local scene.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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dfroelich wrote:
lcparlatto wrote:
Hi there... Would like to know your thoughts about it and if you add then to your
training routine? For instance once a week, once in a month...

Have searched in the Forum, but only found examples of HIIT training and not really about the Tabata protocol (warm up, 8x20s+10s active rest and warm down).

Yesterday I did it for the first time, it was really painfull, when it was the 5th interval it was hurting pretty bad, I was able to finish all the 8 sets, just to see watts dropping from 612 to 483.

What are your experiences? Thanks!


Did you do these indoors/outdoors? If indoors, which trainer and settings?

If you do these right, I don't think it's possible to do them safely outside. By the last few you should almost literally be falling off the bike and unable to safely ride a straight line.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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jhammond wrote:
dfroelich wrote:
lcparlatto wrote:
Hi there... Would like to know your thoughts about it and if you add then to your
training routine? For instance once a week, once in a month...

Have searched in the Forum, but only found examples of HIIT training and not really about the Tabata protocol (warm up, 8x20s+10s active rest and warm down).

Yesterday I did it for the first time, it was really painfull, when it was the 5th interval it was hurting pretty bad, I was able to finish all the 8 sets, just to see watts dropping from 612 to 483.

What are your experiences? Thanks!


Did you do these indoors/outdoors? If indoors, which trainer and settings?


If you do these right, I don't think it's possible to do them safely outside. By the last few you should almost literally be falling off the bike and unable to safely ride a straight line.

Yup, that was my impression. I was asking since my trainer at the time (Tacx vortex smart) could not add nearly enough resistance rapidly. Even my current Elite Direto takes a few seconds ramping from 150-450 for a 15s interval.
Although, I'm not sure I'd want it much faster. If I'm not paying attention, I may miss the jump. That is bad.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Cameron Wurf FTP was recently tested around 360w...

Average over 4mn with Tabata will typically be around or higher than max VO2 power (because heavily relying on anaerobic glycolysis).

400w average on Tabata, probably max VO2 power lower than that, and FTP lower than 300w.

Tabata is essentially oriented toward lactate resistance.
Usefull for :
Km TT
Pursuit
Track endurance races (Elimination, point race, ...)

Little impact on VO2 (much less efficient than 8x 3mn at Vo2 / 1m30 rest, for exemple).

Impact on FTP and LD Tri race pace ?
If any, much less than many other workout

Maybe, if you follow the Tabata with one hour race pace, to educate your body recycling the lactate :-)
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gonna do mine outdoors on my MTB. I plan on doing it not on the road (next to cars and what have you) but rather on carriage trails / fire roads early in the morning when there are no horseback riders or hikers with dogs around.

To my view, the worst that can happen is I fall on the ground, which generally happens on MTB rides when i really push it anyway :)

On the trainer, it takes too long to ramp up, sprints like this spray sweat everywhere, and the trainer eventually will move on the ground far enough to unplug itself from teh wall. On balance, it seems better (for me, anyway) to do it outside.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [ In reply to ]
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How are people doing Tabatas on a smart trainer?
I have a kickr snap, ergo mode would be no good, it sometimes has a few seconds delay in adjusting to the interval. Do you turn the resistance up high and slow pedal the short rest periods?
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Cameron Wurf FTP was recently tested around 360w...

Average over 4mn with Tabata will typically be around or higher than max VO2 power (because heavily relying on anaerobic glycolysis).

400w average on Tabata, probably max VO2 power lower than that, and FTP lower than 300w.

Tabata is essentially oriented toward lactate resistance.
Usefull for :
Km TT
Pursuit
Track endurance races (Elimination, point race, ...)

Little impact on VO2 (much less efficient than 8x 3mn at Vo2 / 1m30 rest, for exemple).

Impact on FTP and LD Tri race pace ?
If any, much less than many other workout

Maybe, if you follow the Tabata with one hour race pace, to educate your body recycling the lactate :-)

Please read the first two pages of this thread, Tabata does impact VO2max. It is not strictly for short distance stuff.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Yukh0] [ In reply to ]
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Yukh0 wrote:
Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Cameron Wurf FTP was recently tested around 360w...

Average over 4mn with Tabata will typically be around or higher than max VO2 power (because heavily relying on anaerobic glycolysis).

400w average on Tabata, probably max VO2 power lower than that, and FTP lower than 300w.

Tabata is essentially oriented toward lactate resistance.
Usefull for :
Km TT
Pursuit
Track endurance races (Elimination, point race, ...)

Little impact on VO2 (much less efficient than 8x 3mn at Vo2 / 1m30 rest, for exemple).

Impact on FTP and LD Tri race pace ?
If any, much less than many other workout

Maybe, if you follow the Tabata with one hour race pace, to educate your body recycling the lactate :-)


Please read the first two pages of this thread, Tabata does impact VO2max. It is not strictly for short distance stuff.

Please read my post : "Little impact on VO2" .... I do not say it have no impact, I say it have LITTLE, being much LESS EFFICIENT than most other workout for VO2. And this is even more true for LD training.

More importantly, read the studies brough by competent people (are you ?) such as A. Coggan showing (not simply affirming) that the VO2 impact of Tabata Protocol is much lower than most other workout.

Because it is MOSTLY efficient for very short and short distance, and pretty much NOT EFFICIENT for long distance.

Not zero efficiency, but not far.

Or, you can stay happy in your fantasy world
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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jhammond wrote:
dfroelich wrote:

Did you do these indoors/outdoors? If indoors, which trainer and settings?

If you do these right, I don't think it's possible to do them safely outside. By the last few you should almost literally be falling off the bike and unable to safely ride a straight line.

On the contrary, I've *only* done these outside, as it's the only way I can hit the indicated power %.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Link the study, bro! Happy to read contrary evidence
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [NUFCrichard] [ In reply to ]
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NUFCrichard wrote:
How are people doing Tabatas on a smart trainer?
I have a kickr snap, ergo mode would be no good, it sometimes has a few seconds delay in adjusting to the interval. Do you turn the resistance up high and slow pedal the short rest periods?

Do you have a power meter as well? Whenever I use Zwift I always use my power meter as the 'control.' This makes the trainer feel a bit more like what my old trainer was like (Kurt Kinetic) in that you need to shift on your own to adjust the power. This way it seems a bit easier to jump back and forth from easy and hard efforts.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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Since the Tabata Protocol is an all-out, L7 workout, check out this table:


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Re: Tabata Protocol... [devolikewhoa83] [ In reply to ]
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devolikewhoa83 wrote:
Link the study, bro! Happy to read contrary evidence

Read previous posts, bro
And have a good read.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [DeanV] [ In reply to ]
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DeanV wrote:
So how is the "all out" effort paced?
By definition I would of thought "all out" is just that, so a 20s sprint.
For my feeble abilities that would be around 1000w with a bit of a fade before the end.
That is significantly more than 170% of my VO2 max and also with only 10s to recover I would be on a pretty quick downhill spiral as far as watts for subsequent reps.
Yes, that's because Tabata is not meant to be "all out". All out would be an Wingate protocol.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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Thorax wrote:
that's because Tabata is not meant to be "all out".

Really, not all-out? Here is a link to the protocol itself: https://www.tabataprotocol.com/

From the link above, the original Tabata Protocol Workout requires the following:
  • 5 minutes of warm-up
  • 8 intervals of 20 seconds all-out intensity exercise followed by 10 seconds of rest
  • 2 minutes cool-down

If you are not doing it all-out, then you are not doing it correctly.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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The link you mention not seems to be serious.

1) all out make no sense. Power will drop rapidly, 1 set you evacuate PC generated ATP (L7), and after 3 repeat you are only drowning in lactate, the rest is just.... what ?

2) A Coggan (more serious than the content of the page referenced) indicate it is 170% of max VO2 power - more intensity 6 than intensity 7. Make more sense as 170% of MVO2P can probably be handled for 2mn, so 8x20s (total 2mn40s) with small rest interval make sense.

3) Burn fat at high intensity..... is a joke. Look at Cameron Wurf measured fat consumption. It is zero from 380 watts :
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread
And... with Tabata you burn little sugar, as exercise stop quickly.

Seems like a typical L6 workout. Core training for track sprinter (Km specialist mostly) and high end for track endurance and other short intensity races
With a lot of big bullshit around.
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Jan 8, 19 15:01
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
Thorax wrote:
that's because Tabata is not meant to be "all out".


Really, not all-out? Here is a link to the protocol itself: https://www.tabataprotocol.com/

From the link above, the original Tabata Protocol Workout requires the following:
  • 5 minutes of warm-up
  • 8 intervals of 20 seconds all-out intensity exercise followed by 10 seconds of rest
  • 2 minutes cool-down

If you are not doing it all-out, then you are not doing it correctly.

Here is a link to the abstract for Tabata's original 1996 paper. Would you please write him and tell him he wasn't administering his own protocol correctly?
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, could have at least gone to google scholar and searched for Tabata and then Wingate. But no.
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Re: Tabata Protocol... [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes some people have a hard time figuring out when to stop digging.
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