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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Former pros racing age group are disliked because it exposes just how slow 98% of us really are. We play this grand charade of splitting up "age groups", pretending that there's a significant difference in potential between 25 and 44 year-olds. Really, we're just trying to make each category small enough so that more people will get awards. It's like kids' soccer where they don't keep score.

Good point.

Years ago in running, before rec-running was all the big participatory thing that it is now( not that, that is a bad thing in any way - it's all good), there were only several categories:

Junior 19 and under
Senior 20 - 39
Master - 40+( with occasional gradations as you got older such as grand-master at 50+)







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
What would be the correct time off after a Po career before someone is allowed to compete again? And what should they do in that time? Bake cookies?

I think the point being made is that there are plenty of other races she could have done. I am not sure what "retired" pro means, if you are still racing and doing it at what is basically a professional level. I agree that just because you were once a pro does not mean you should never be able to race AG. However, AG nationals is one event where I think some restraint might be very sporting.

Sure she is free to race as an AGer. Different people will have different opinions on how sporting it is for a formed top level pro to compete in and win an AG national championship. No one is disputing that she is free to enter the event. I would also like to make clear that I am not saying it is bad sportmanship for former pros to race AG nationals, just saying you are not going to get the Byrd trophy in my book for doing so.

Here is one perspective. She is a "retired" pro, e.g., claims not to be making a living doing this. For some of the younger ladies just striking out, the notoriety of being the AG national champion might be helpful in attracting sponsors for a budding pro career. Somebody might say it would be extremely classy to leave at least one race to those who are undisputed amateurs right now and do some other race. For example, being the AG winner at St. Anthony's is a nice feather in your cap, but you were not the winner. AG nationals is the one race, where the AG winner is the winner. It is the biggest spotlight for amateurs, and some purity would be nice. For someone who has won an Olympic medal, I can't see how AG national champion would be anywhere near the greatest competitive moment of your life. For any of the other competitors, I am sure it would have been.

I am more impressed with former pros who chose other races to continue competing as amateurs.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's awesome that Susan Williams raced USAT Nationals yesterday. Susan and I swam at the University of Alabama years ago. She's one tough cookie! Susan actually told me at last years Nationals race in Tuscaloosa that she was going to race in VT. She really wanted to qualify for Worlds so that she and her husband could go to New Zealand. I am happy that she's going to be able to do that.

I think it's amazing that she has 3 kids (one that is only 11 months old) and she can still lay down some hurt at 42 years old. For those that have an issue with her racing please give us a solution to where and when ex-professionals, like Susan, can race.

I toe the line quite frequently against former professionals all the time. Gordon Byrn and Curt Chesney are two that easily come to mind. Both of these guys are awesome individuals and makes me want to "pick up my game" to try and get faster. They make me faster! The only way I am ever going to beat them is to outwork them. This may or may not happen. So far it hasn't. That's not going to stop me from trying.

So, if you don't want to get beat by ex-professionals then do what's necessary to make sure that doesn't happen. I, for one, like the fact that they are racing with us!

Bruce Gennari
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Can't believe you guys are the 'defenders of the free world'....and yet you're bitching about this.

Stoked Susan Williams will be coming to NZ.

:)
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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It's an honor to be beat by a former Olympian or ex-pro, in fact it's bragging rights to say that the only person who beat you was of that caliber! I'm female and in the next age group up from Susan - didn't race national this year but I have plenty of those folks in the Boulder area to compete with and there is no shame when they win. I find it very inspiring and motivating that these folks continue to compete as they age up regardless of the race.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Former pros racing age group are disliked because it exposes just how slow 98% of us really are. We play this grand charade of splitting up "age groups", pretending that there's a significant difference in potential between 25 and 44 year-olds. Really, we're just trying to make each category small enough so that more people will get awards. It's like kids' soccer where they don't keep score.

Good point.

Years ago in running, before rec-running was all the big participatory thing that it is now( not that, that is a bad thing in any way - it's all good), there were only several categories:

Junior 19 and under
Senior 20 - 39
Master - 40+( with occasional gradations as you got older such as grand-master at 50+)


Off-topic, but we should definitely go back to this. More competition and faster awards ceremonies! I get so tired of waiting through 15+ age groups, open, masters, masters open, athena, clydesdale, .... everyone has to be a winner.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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You're point might be a good point if she was an elite. She's an AG athlete now. she no longer races elite. AG nationals is her new Olympics. If someone is upset they got beat by a former Olympics medalist who is no longer elite, they should stop complaining and go do something about getting their ass Handed to them.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Here is one perspective. She is a "retired" pro, e.g., claims not to be making a living doing this. For some of the younger ladies just striking out, the notoriety of being the AG national champion might be helpful in attracting sponsors for a budding pro career. Somebody might say it would be extremely classy to leave at least one race to those who are undisputed amateurs right now and do some other race.

Your point would be a good one if there were ever some serious money in this sport other than for a handful of the very best athletes at the very top of the sport. After that the money in this sport drops of precipitously, and the line between Pro and Amateur get's rather blurred. Believe me, by winning, she's not blocking out anyone from some huge sponsorship deal or bonus package!

We have had this discussion on here many times. In the sport of triathlon the reality is that there really is only maybe 20 - 30 athletes in the whole world, in the whole sport who are living and working it as a true professionals - deriving almost their entire incomes from winnings and sponsorship. With all due respect, after that, there is a large group of triathletes who in reality are just amazing and very good triathletes who get handed a bit of cash every now and then( not enough to live off of) and get free stuff from some Mfgs. (and you can't live off of that either)







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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If someone is winning AG nationals by a large margin perhaps they should be racing elite, no matter what their past accomplishments were. I'm surprised she would want to compete in the AG category when it really doesn't seem like much of a competition.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [maija] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If someone is winning AG nationals by a large margin perhaps they should be racing elite

Conversely perhaps the other females should train more/better and or figure out how to get faster.

Maybe she doesn't want to put in the training time it takes to race elite. Maybe the other AG women in the US aren't really that fast.

I understand hating to get beat. There is a former elite here in AZ. When he's in shape 85% of the time he crushes the rest of us. He still pops in the occasional top 10 overall, including elites as an AGer in large national level races. Maybe he should go back and get his elite card? Or maybe the rest of us around here should start a bitch and whine club about it.

The fact is we try to get faster. If someone is faster that day, no matter who they are, so be it. People bitching and moaning about how they got smoked isn't going to help their situation.

I love triathlon, where it's ok to get beat, but when it's an ex pro it's suddenly not. Most top Agers in the US are in fact minnows in a very, very big pond with very, very, very big fish.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 21, 11 15:43
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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Off-topic, but we should definitely go back to this. More competition and faster awards ceremonies! I get so tired of waiting through 15+ age groups, open, masters, masters open, athena, clydesdale, .... everyone has to be a winner.

I usually get a few, "That would be great" comments when I post this up. The reality is that we have gone way too far down the "Everyone's a Winner" path to turn back now. There would be wide-spread outrage if the sport(s) ever did this now.

We had a guy freak-out about a change in the format of the draw-prizes being handed out a race here in Ontario earlier. It was so outrageous and over-the-top, that we thought the guy was joking at first, but he was very serious about it.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Pro licenses expire 12/31 every year and must be renewed after having qualified by finishing within 10% of the winner's time at a race offering a certain amount of prize money. At her level of ability and results, and per USAT rules she could have theoretically continued to hold a pro license without even racing since the Summer Olympics until the end of 2007. I'm trying to find other race results for her since 2004 but her name is pretty common and Athlinks is balking at me. Assuming the 2004 Olympics was her last race, then the worst case scenario (being defined by her staying "retired" for the least amount of time) she would have been an amateur on paper for 3 1/2 years, but perhaps even began getting out of shape before that.

3 1/2 or 4 years is a long time, but there are some things that you can never take away from someone who has competed at such a high level, and will continue to make them great for all of perpetuity:
--Drive and determination. The kind of extreme motivation and commitment that comes from within that the average triathlete can't even begin to understand.
--Superior technique. Swim and run fitness may go, but having spent so much time practicing certain motions it is (sorry for the cliche:) like riding a bike.
--Knowledge of how their body functions. Most amateurs just don't train effectively. I believe it was either SQW or Alistair Brownlee that said this, but (paraphrasing:) "It's not about who trains the longest, or the hardest, just who trains the best." Once you get to the pointy end of the ability continuum sometimes too much hard training can dull your edge. Trying to push 3 or 4 consecutive sessions to your limit may not be as effective as pushing 1 or 2 past your limit and recovering in between. As a former Olympian, Susan undoubtedly understands what works for her and what doesn't.


I'm good, but I'm not Olympic caliber, so while I can relate in some ways, I'm sure there are countless other inherent "advantages" she has that I'm not aware of because I'm simply not that good. That said, does that mean she shouldn't be racing? NO. These "advantages" aren't unfair. They're out there for anyone to gain for themselves given the right combination of devotion, genetics, and coaching/training.

People are too preoccupied with "winning" age group awards, but then again, if a large chunk of the racing population went away from the race feeling like a loser then triathlon probably wouldn't be very popular. By increasing the number of "winners" RD's can brighten some people's days when they would otherwise simply look silly when compared with a great athlete like Rudy Kahsar or Susan Williams. Rudy and Susan WON a fair race, and everyone else "won" age group awards. That said, Brian Duffy has been competing in the AG ranks for years when in fact he is a pro caliber athlete. I'm not familiar with Susan's recent results, but Brian has won the elite amateur division on plenty of occasions with a time that would place him among the top 10-15 pros. IMO what he's doing should be more frustrating than what Susan Williams is doing.

I agree with the argument that AG Nats should be a pure AG race, so I propose the following distinction: if you qualify for your professional license (regardless of whether or not you choose to file for it--I know a substantial number of people fall into this category) then you are ineligible for AG nats.

__________________________

I tweet!

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
If I knew who Susan Williams was I might actually care......


---------------


From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.



And Hot, too.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?
Last edited by: cerveloguy: Aug 21, 11 16:14
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?

You forgot to add - IMO
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
some whiney loser is going to whine at any race a stud enters.

so a stud might as well enter where ever she wants.

No it's true. We are all going to pummel you at Savageman and you are aren't whining about it.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
You're point might be a good point if she was an elite. She's an AG athlete now. she no longer races elite. AG nationals is her new Olympics. If someone is upset they got beat by a former Olympics medalist who is no longer elite, they should stop complaining and go do something about getting their ass Handed to them.

I didn't see anyone who was defeated by her complaining about anything.
As an observer, I happen to find it pretty uninteresting that former Olympic medalists are now winning amateur triathlon national titles. Someone from AGs nationals today may be in the Olympics in the future and it is not going to be Williams.
I am sorry if you feel anyone who disagrees with your opinion is complaining and whining about something.
I think it would be a lot more interesting to see young up and comers winning the AG national title. You would prefer to see former elites win them instead, so what?

I am sure it will be motivating to everyone that finished behind Susan Williams to be told they got their asses handed to them.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see her competing
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon Steve wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?

You forgot to add - IMO

IMO is redundant when anyone posts anything. The only thing worse is IMHO which is just utter nonsense.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Chris G] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the tip.....
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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As for the substance of the thread ... If she does not have a pro card she can't race as a pro/elite/whatever they call it so really has no choice but to race AG, right? If she wanted to race pro in the future she would have to race AG in order to qualify for it, right? Assuming I am not totally confused about how you earn the right to race pro/elite then every person who is racing pro/elite earned the right to do so by racing AG and any pro who took a few years off for whatever reason would have to earn the right to do so again by racing AG. Either you have to make the person pro/elite for life when they qualify, which seems stupid, or let them race AG.

I do however think that age groups make sense in a sport like tri which is dominated (in numbers anyhow) By people who have come into the sport later in life. Besides it allows old fat guys like me to win stuff occasionally and what could be wrong with that?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Pro licenses expire 12/31 every year and must be renewed after having qualified by finishing within 10% of the winner's time at a race offering a certain amount of prize money. At her level of ability and results, and per USAT rules she could have theoretically continued to hold a pro license without even racing since the Summer Olympics until the end of 2007.

This is NOT accurate at all. She HAS to race a certain course which is identical to the pro's and finish within 10% of the winner's time, with a certain required prize purse. No race, then after 2 years her license would expire. I speak from experience on this.

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These "advantages" aren't unfair. They're out there for anyone to gain for themselves given the right combination of devotion, genetics, and coaching/training.

So if she has no unfair advantage, what is the issue? What's next, if you have a coach and/or know how to train without being stupid or getting injured, then you shouldn't be eligible for any races, except elite? Does anybody on this board understand the f-ing difference of competitiveness and commitment requirements that the elite level has over age-group? Susan just smoked the field, and if you put her in a WCS race next weekend, she would get smoked, and she knows that, it's why she retired in the first place! She understands the difference, that's why she said there was no pressure at this event.

What about former collegiate swimmers and their great swim splits that people can't make up the difference for in a sprint? Is that unfair? What about the former collegiate runner who can run down everyone? What about Lukas Verzbikas? Isn't it unfair that he can run 8:29 for 2 miles, and 14:0X for 5K, compared to the other juniors at junior nationals?

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I agree with the argument that AG Nats should be a pure AG race, so I propose the following distinction: if you qualify for your professional license (regardless of whether or not you choose to file for it--I know a substantial number of people fall into this category) then you are ineligible for AG nats.



So, if you're actually deserving of competing for an age-group national title, you shouldn't be allowed to? If you're just barely good enough to be considered elite, then you should have to go get your ass kicked in the elite ranks? You do realize that this would continue to lower the bar further and further, and eventually, we'd all be elites. Maybe then the bitching would stop.

"Excuse me, you're disqualified for being good."

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.


------------

Wow, all of a sudden I feel completely inadequate...and lazy!

Pretty impressive resume to say the least.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I'm trying to find other race results for her since 2004 but her name is pretty common and Athlinks is balking at me. Assuming the 2004 Olympics was her last race, then the worst case scenario (being defined by her staying "retired" for the least amount of time) she would have been an amateur on paper for 3 1/2 years, but perhaps even began getting out of shape before that.

She won SavageMan in 2008 and 2009 and remains the overall course and bike leg record holder.

And, @jackmott and @tri_yoda, she will pummel you both next month at SavageMan.
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