'open' turns whilst doing freestyle look damned ridiculous! learn to do a 'tumble turn'. and when you begin to get tired, continue to do them...

SeaL masks are also very ugly.

is a tumble turn the same thing as a flip turn?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

yeah they are called tumble turns in the southern hemisphere ( didn't realise they had a diff name up your way..). Touch turns are for breaststroke and butterfly only!! I was never a backstroker but if you think doing tumble turns is hard on your lungs try doing turns in a 200m short course race where you're underwater for around half of a 25m pool (ie for breaststroke in my case, fly and back are prob even harder in a race considering you're kicking most of the time if you're staying underwater for long periods of time)

What about flip turns (or tumble turns) without touching the wall? If it's about training for triathlon a) who cares the actual time to do a given distance if you include the turns; What matter really is the speed/ relaxation whilst swimming; b) it may help to stop start when sometimes you are stuck at a buoy. I have been stuck turning around a buoy and be stuck 'in trafic' and had to start swimming in open water, but I never had to push off a wall in a triathlon. Our tri coach had us doing this drill and it's not easy and pretty tiring.

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Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

Thank you, FLAJill, for providing the only real list of possible benefits to flip turns.

Sync - I'm a very slow swimmer, but not because I don't do flip turns, but because I just learned to swim 1-2 years ago. I've gained considerable time and am continuing to get better. And your question has nothing to do with whether flip turns are helpful or not. You keep stating opinions ("because they'll make you faster", or "just because they're better", etc), but you never give any solid reasons (like FLAJill did).

I'll concede this: there are two arguments/claims being thrown around here and some are mixing the two together...

Claim 1: Doing flip-turns makes you a faster swimmer. This is where I call bullshit. Your ability to flip under water, kick off a wall, then start your swim the other direction in no-way impacts your ability to swim faster between the flip turns.

• Swimmer A: Lives on a deserted island, alone, with a 50m pool Swims everyday with flip turns.
• Swimmer B: Lives on a deserted island, alone, with a long lake/pond that's several miles long. Swims the same, obviously no need for flips turns.
• Are you telling me that ALL things being equal, swimmer A will be faster just because s/he does flip turns? Again I call bullshit. Flip turns exist only because of the environment we swim in - short pools. If tracks were only short straight-aways, distance runners would have to hold their breath and do "jump-flips" on a padded wall to start running the other way!
  
• Fish don't do flip turns! If they were that important, don't you think at least one real fish would do them? ;-)
  

Claim 2: The ability to do flip-turns improves/enhances other things that improve your ability to train to be a better swimmer, i.e., opportunities to swim in faster lanes during practice, blending in more easily with other swimmers, bonus ab work, easier on back & shoulders, etc. I'll AGREE with this claim.

I guess my problem all along has been the people who claim in absolute terms, "flip turns make you swim faster". When you think of all the swim "tools" that aid swimming - pull buoys teaching you balance, kick boards, hand paddles, etc., they all have something to do with teaching you the mechanics of swimming. Flip turns in no-way help you in the mechanics of swimming any stroke whatsoever (other than the flip-turn-stroke!). I think they should add a swim distance in meets called the "flip-stroke 2m", you only get 6 feet of lane, and you just keep doing flip turns over an over. Ok - maybe they should call it the somersault!

*Edit: TomP makes an interesting point, he swims only 15m out of 25m because of his push-off and dolphin kicks, etc. This is exactly my point! That is purely a "short-pool" mechanism for swimming "faster" because he's swimming LESS. You can't do that in the open water. Tom - I bet if you were to stop doing flip turns completely for one-year, but continued to do everything else the same, you would get FASTER. Why? Well - since you admit you only actually swim 15m per 25m
, without the flip turns maybe that would turn into 5-10m additional time you could spend on the actual stroke you use in the open water. The flip-turn isn't making you swim faster. It is indeed helping you get to the wall faster, but not by swimming.

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Could the out of breath feeling be from not exhaling the CO2 from your lungs? I've felt sometimes that was the case.

Also, another good reason for flip-turns is that you have better body position off the wall to start your first stroke since you will allready have been streamlined. I've seen good open turns from swimmers doing breaststroke and fly, even their position off the wall isn't as good as when they do flip-turns.

jaretj

            Good Lord!Now that my hero and mentor has told me to flip turn, looks like I'll have to do it from now on.I use open turns to give me a chance to check out if there are any hot new chicks on the pool deck.Guess that's why I've never won two IMC's like you.Not to worry, as I've already forgotten how to be a triathlete in the last three months maybe flip turns will be first on the list of things to get right this year.By the way,can we see an Ultraman on the calendar this year for you?I'd love to see you hang around in Penticton this year for the IMC/UMC double.

yes.

i've always had difficulty pulling it off however. i've had several fish attempt to help me do them without much success. i am slower in the pool without the technique. that is an absolute.

now after viewing Mike Ricci's video at BT i'm working into it with more success. this 3 step thing is a heck of a lot easier for me to work through. i think within a week i may have this licked.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

For reason #2 alone I will work in flip turns into my swimming. I never thought about it, but it makes sense, you kind of do a crunch on a flip turn.

A short game of water polo really helps with learning how to manouver and turn quickly in the water without having anything to push off of, and is a heckava lot more fun than that drill would be.

As for other turns, y'all are lucky you didn't have to learn the old school backstroke spin turns. I always felt like they were far harder than flip turns ever were.

Here's what you meant to say, Flanagan.

There's a scene in the movie "Good Will Hunting" where our hero feels bad about himself and his shrink, Mork from Ork, finally breaks through and helps Will deal with his issues and insecurities.

So Kalidus, you can't do a flip-turn (if flip-turns are "tiring you out a lot faster" and you're trying to justify not doing them to a bunch of strangers, then you can't do a flip-turn).

That stuff there, Kalidus, that's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault, man. It's not your fault.

Quote:

As for other turns, y'all are lucky you didn't have to learn the old school backstroke spin turns.

Amen to that FLA Jill! I know a guy who was just learning the backstroke flip as a HS freshman, and flipped into the next lane over during his first meet. Oops! But he eventually learned to do backstroke flips both right handed and left handed.

My two cents on the to flip or not to flip question:
NamssoB, you're missing TomP's point. True, you can't get away with stroking only 15 of 25 yards in open water. But the point of long distance swimming, both in the pool and in open water, is to minimize the number of strokes you need to cover a given distance. Incorporating flip turns will help improve your swimming efficiency because you'll come off the wall in a good streamlined position and you can keep cruising in fourth gear rather than wasting energy starting over in first. I guess one could argue that you can get a nice strong pushoff with an open turn, but that would mean a lot of rest time on wall while you decelerate, reposition your body, and accelerate again. I'd rather carrying the momentum over with a flip turn and get back to the swimming.

One thing that does bug me though--those flip turners who make it a point to smack their legs down to make as much "look at me" noise as they can. This really bugs me when they're faster than I am.

The point of a flipturn is to keep the momentum up and the heart rate up. Would it make sense for someone who has been swimming for years and years to stop doing flipturns because the have to affect in triathlons? Nope.

The affect of a flipturn on swimming (swimming, not the swim leg in a tri) is speed and momentum. You push your lungs and heart rate and therefore improve. Michael Phelps.....great example...watch some of his underwater swimming and watch him push off the wall. Its like starting off of the blocks or out of the blocks on the track.

Now, my husband isn't a swimmer first...he is first and foremost an amazing runner. But he's going to do some triathlons and I've been getting him in the pool and writing some workouts for him. He doesn't flip turn, but he does recognize that he could probably swim at a higher heart rate with the turn and wants me to teach him. He may never "get" flipturns and he may. We'll see. But I'm not going to MAKE him...only if he wants to learn how to. It is a lot easier in the long run to do them when you are doing long sets like 1000s or 1200s.

I don't know if they have a direct positive affect in triathloning, but it will improve your swim workouts and your swim workouts will improve your swim leg of a tri as well as your aerobic and cardio fitness, which will of course, make you a better athlete over all.

I have asthma and am much smaller than my hubby. I can hold my breath for a lot longer, and my VO2 max is higher. My theory....he's been running since he was 7, so 29 years. I've been swimming for 27 years.... unless I'm spotting in open water, I breath every 3-5 strokes....most of the time, no breath on last 2 strokes into a turn, and no breath until 2nd stroke out of the turn, past the flags....unless I am just worn out and having a rough workout.

Someone above put it very well.... the riding analogy.

Give it a shot... now if they make you dizzy like they did someone who posted earlier, I would steer clear of them and be careful in open water as your equilibrium may not like the water all that much.

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Tiger for Life -- War Eagle!

This is why you practice your sighting technique. You should be able to check out the scenery while doing 100s on 1:20 without breaking pace, and determine within 5 years and 10 pounds the age and weight of any hot new chicks you see in one sighting. Extra points if you can ID their swim cap at the same time. Just like in open water swimming, some times it takes two sightings in succession: one to spot the landmarks, and a second to get the details.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

    I'm wondering: how many people do open turns because they are triathletes and see no need to learn flip turns for racing, but ride in a pace line or draft during training on their bike. Drafting is not allowed in most triathlons, so I hope triathletes aren't drafting in training ;)

I remember those! They were killer hard!

True, you can't get away with stroking only 15 of 25 yards in open water. But the point of long distance swimming, both in the pool and in open water, is to minimize the number of strokes you need to cover a given distance.


I agree that in a pool, where you are trying to minimize the time spent between the walls, the flip turn (and huge push off with the legs that accompanies it) are valuable. But if you are minimizing strokes by rocketing underwater coming off the wall I don't see how that helps improve open water efficiency. I've tried to push off the guy drafting me and it does not help significantly. :-)

Plus, even though it is a small rest when performing the open turn, I believe the accelleration required to get back up to speed provides its own benefit.

All that being said, I'm a MOP swimmer who is not against learning to flip turn as there may be times I can us it. Does anyone know a good resource to learn from (vid, etc.)? Also, how deep does the pool need to be? Where I swim the water is barely waist deep. Not sure I can flip in that.

Thanks,
Kenton

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"Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn." - Charles De Mar

I don't do flip turns simply because it is an action that does not translate into progress in open water. If someone can make a case otherwise I am all ears.

I am learning to do flip-turns. This is for two reasons: 1. with them I will be able to move up a lane and get pushed harder by the faster swimmers. This will make me a better swimmer. Although slow, I currently lead my lane but cannot quite keep up with the next lane. 2. I figure I may as well enter a few swimming races in pools to keep things interesting and to keep my motivation up. Lots of folks do running races, I figure swimming races should help too.

I don't see how open turns is an action that translates into progress in open water either. It's just easier to do.

So if neither type of turn helps open water swimming then maybe we should do the turn that helps the most with basic swimming.



jaretj

I think Jill laid out the most compelling reason. That being if you are in a masters swim or squad setting, the open turns are holding you back from the opportunity to swim with faster people in a faster lane. A big part of why we go to group swim classes is for that little extra push that comes from the people around. Having faster people around you gives even more of that push to finish the sets in a given time.

Great Qx from the OP !

Excellent reasons from FLA Jill. All the reason I need.

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Hurry Up Every Chance You Get

(formerly LuctorEtEmergo)

So the issue is not flip turns per se, but the strong push off? You'd have the same problem with a well-performed open turn.


I would disagree. In acceleration mode you're taking short inefficient strokes, not the long smooth strokes you should be practicing for a long open water swim.


Try this (click here). Waste deep should be enough. Good luck learning--it took me a few weeks and some sore heels, but once you get the hang of it you'll never go back.