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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Feb 26, 21 11:45
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [42point2] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the meter/yard confusion - I’m pretty sure I saw “1000M” in the video title.
Either I am completely demented (possible) or the YouTube account admin made an error in the title first and then edited it (also possible).

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, especially @tilburs. If I knew this TT would attract this much ST attention, I would’ve opened
a new thread rather than hijacking this one :)

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 26, 21 14:17
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

I feel like that’s true regardless of the athletes level.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I’m the opposite of an expert, but those look like pretty mediocre flip turns to me ... surfacing awfully quickly. Maybe some time lost there that’s not relevant to OWS? Sounds like a similar issue to a lot of mediocre swimmers ... struggles to manage his breath, comes out quick to breath.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Sorry for the meter/yard confusion - I’m pretty sure I saw “1000M” in the video title.
Either I am completely demented (possible) or the YouTube account admin made an error in the title first and then edited it (also possible).

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, especially @tilburs. If I knew this TT would attract this much ST attention, I would’ve opened
a new thread rather than hijacking this one :)
It did say 1000M until this morning when the title got changed. Surprised it took that long but no one mentioned it in the comments last I had checked!

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
One of the most important aspects of working with athletes at Lionel´s or Sam´s level whatever your coaching philosophy / heuristic / construct / dogma you mould it and fit it to the athlete, you do not fit the athlete to your schtick. Folks forget that sometimes or choose to ignore it.

David - Honest question for you as his coach: In the video, Lionel talks a lot about how he went out too fast and then couldn't recover in that first 1000 in 11:57. After he does the 2nd 1000 in 11:48, he talks like he's made a "big discovery" that he had gone out too fast before. How can it be that as a 33 yr old athlete he had not "discovered" this before??? As I understand it, he's been running in races since high school and pacing is just as important in swimming as in running. I just don't understand why he is allegedly "learning" this in the pool today at age 33???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.

And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.

Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.

Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out. Again I think he describes swimming as “stupid” in that it’s so much more technique and focus than just “working harder” from one of his videos earlier in Dec I believe. So not even much coaching insight other than this is an athlete finally “figuring it out” and it’s fairly evident to come to that conclusion just listening to him talk,

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out. Again I think he describes swimming as “stupid” in that it’s so much more technique and focus than just “working harder” from one of his videos earlier in Dec I believe. So not even much coaching insight other than this is an athlete finally “figuring it out” and it’s fairly evident to come to that conclusion just listening to him talk,

And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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On the face of it it comes across that way but no he´s known that for many years. Doesn´t mean sometimes one still gets it wrong thats human nature.

For example if I simply tell you once what the "dutch reach" is when exiting your car for cyclists and your own safety the next 100 times you exit your car do you do it 100 times?.... no. Sometimes you forget, sometimes you remember (because you had a close call perhaps) eventually it clicks and the length of eventually depends on context.

In all the 100 or so elite athletes I´ve worked with there´s absolutely plenty that "I´ve led to the waters edge and shown them how to drink and they still drink only when they realise they are thirsty" and there´s plenty that I´ve conveyed a message a multitude of times for performance purposes and it wasn´t until they went away worked with another coach conveying same message in different language did the penny drop, that´s coaching for you.

I am as guilty of the following as anyone else but when we start out coaching we crave knowledge to have all the answers to every question...... great coaches 20+ years down the line will have the depth and breadth of wisdom to realise that the position they are now afforded is to simply ask better questions.

Am pretty open about my thoughts on coaching as and when I can be because I feel knowledge and experience should be shared not immediately commoditised.

To circle back to your point and a later comment of "I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years"...... how many prior years of swimming had you done before "learning" that? And consequently have you paced every race perfectly?

It´s great to read plenty of folks breaking down what people like Lionel or Sam do getting all reductionist.... "just do X, just think Y..." however it is never that easy or simple.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out.


And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


First, didn't he say the first bout was supposed to start at race take out effort, as a sort of a simulation?

Second, I love Lionel, but you know, he is the marketing champion of the world in addition to being a triathlon beast. In my view, he's trying to be candid, but also relatable. He can't always be both at the same time. We love him because he's a PRO with many of an age grouper's problems, from the seemingly insurmountable obstacle that is swimming to always changing his mind about training concepts, to calculating his fluid intake obsessively and then forgetting to drink in a race, to ridiculous race logistics errors (didn't theck the equipment before 70.3 Oceanside 2019, etc.). I'm guessing he is a little bit like this, but he's exaggerating it for entertainment value and relatability.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Feb 27, 21 1:44
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not sure what your point is. His swim has been his limiter, he’s always sorta struggled with it. He’s likely always known what it takes and understood it, but it just seems like know he’s finally maturing enough as an athlete to get the whole picture. Who gives a fuck how long it took, isn’t the point that your seeing an athlete right in front of us “get it” the bigger deal.

That’s the entire journey for any athlete. I have an athlete who came to me broken from running too hard all the time (couldn’t run at all and had to bail on several races). I harped on him about slowing down certain runs and he still didn’t listen. Got a little niggle again but not as bad. He got a dog that can run with him on certain days and it keeps his run speed in check. A fucking dog was the answer for him to finally see that a little “easier” goes a long ways; even though he’s heard it for 18 months from me and “knows” he should run easier. He just didn’t cus every set was seemingly a “let’s compare this run to last week etc”. But now he laughs about it cus it’s helped a bunch. So I’m thinking it took a fucking dog from gf to have this real revelation.....thank god for the dog. Athletes journey is made up of all kinds of ups downs and sideways

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 27, 21 4:43
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)

Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

^^ and Don't overthink it. Relax.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
On the face of it it comes across that way but no he´s known that for many years. Doesn´t mean sometimes one still gets it wrong thats human nature.
For example if I simply tell you once what the "dutch reach" is when exiting your car for cyclists and your own safety the next 100 times you exit your car do you do it 100 times?.... no. Sometimes you forget, sometimes you remember (because you had a close call perhaps) eventually it clicks and the length of eventually depends on context.
In all the 100 or so elite athletes I´ve worked with there´s absolutely plenty that "I´ve led to the waters edge and shown them how to drink and they still drink only when they realise they are thirsty" and there´s plenty that I´ve conveyed a message a multitude of times for performance purposes and it wasn´t until they went away worked with another coach conveying same message in different language did the penny drop, that´s coaching for you.
I am as guilty of the following as anyone else but when we start out coaching we crave knowledge to have all the answers to every question...... great coaches 20+ years down the line will have the depth and breadth of wisdom to realise that the position they are now afforded is to simply ask better questions.
Am pretty open about my thoughts on coaching as and when I can be because I feel knowledge and experience should be shared not immediately commoditised.
To circle back to your point and a later comment of "I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years"...... how many prior years of swimming had you done before "learning" that? And consequently have you paced every race perfectly?
It´s great to read plenty of folks breaking down what people like Lionel or Sam do getting all reductionist.... "just do X, just think Y..." however it is never that easy or simple.

David - Thanks very much for your thoughtful and detailed response. Just for the record, I was in my 3rd year of swimming when I swam that one 200 free and no I haven't always paced every race or time trial perfectly since then, but most of the time I have, b/c the feeling of losing that one race in the last 10 yds has stayed with me for many years. Lionel is kind of like Steve Prefontaine ("The best pace is a suicide pace, and today is a good day to die...") in that he has so much talent he can go out too hard and hang on for the win most of the time. In any case, i can see how even elite guys have to relearn things from time to time. Thanks again for your openness. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s pretty evident from the videos he’s finally starting to figure it out.


And it took him what, 10 yrs of swimming to "finally" figure this out??? SMH...:)


First, didn't he say the first bout was supposed to start at race take out effort, as a sort of a simulation?

Second, I love Lionel, but you know, he is the marketing champion of the world in addition to being a triathlon beast. In my view, he's trying to be candid, but also relatable. He can't always be both at the same time. We love him because he's a PRO with many of an age grouper's problems, from the seemingly insurmountable obstacle that is swimming to always changing his mind about training concepts, to calculating his fluid intake obsessively and then forgetting to drink in a race, to ridiculous race logistics errors (didn't theck the equipment before 70.3 Oceanside 2019, etc.). I'm guessing he is a little bit like this, but he's exaggerating it for entertainment value and relatability.



That's an interesting take on this and a viewpoint that I would never have thought of, being a bit overly literally minded myself. In any case, it's good to have a nice swim debate thread for a change of pace from the multitude of bike gear threads. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.

That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.

Yes, it’s simplified. But as they say, start simple and build to complex. For someone with fitness like LS, he has a lot to gain by not “fighting” the water or “forcing” it. My best times are all when I swim the smoothest, and in open water when I give in and let the conditions dictate my technique and stroke. Easy in this context really isn’t about the effort level, it’s about keeping things simple.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
boobooaboo wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Because LS has always simply "brut forced" things it seems. "I'll just try harder" and that should make me faster.
And an athlete can be told this 1000 times day after day by coaches, but until they finally have that "ah ha" moment for themselves, they won't always actually understand or buy into what they are actually saying.
Like listen to him talk in any videos since Dec and you'll really understand just how "stupid" swimming is to him. He describes it as making no sense that the "harder" he tries the less fast he goes....the "easier" he is in the water the faster it goes....It for a long time seemingly makes no conceptual sense to him and for many people.


Hmmm, well, I guess maybe some athletes just have to figure things out "the hard way". I learned this lesson swimming the 200 free in high school and it has stuck with me over the years. In any case, thanks for your insight as a coach. :)


Swimming in a nutshell. Easy is smooth, smooth is fast.


That is oversimplifying it a bit, since swimmers all know that swimming fast is pretty painful. You have to stay smooth while putting out a huge effort.


Yes, it’s simplified. But as they say, start simple and build to complex. For someone with fitness like LS, he has a lot to gain by not “fighting” the water or “forcing” it. My best times are all when I swim the smoothest, and in open water when I give in and let the conditions dictate my technique and stroke. Easy in this context really isn’t about the effort level, it’s about keeping things simple.

Got it. The thing that kind of bugs me is when guys trying to learn to swim, or to improve, say that "swimming is just all technique". Umm, no, it is not ALL technique, you've also got to put in a few million or so yards to develop swim specific strength and endurance. As Jason has said many times, swimming is both technique and fitness.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Such a great perspective to have and thanks for sharing and being so open.

So many coaches could and should read that post a few times.

Pre sydney (for qualifying for and then racing there) we did sets that really helped (at the time) get folks to be in that front group.

They looked something like this:

(post warm up of course)

4 (or eventually) 6 x 50 on short rest interval ( think :40 or :45 sec LCM at altitude at the otc) with the goal of holding around 31 or 32 sec. Anything slower was failure.
Follow up that last 50 with a 200m max swim.

In the spirit of your theory (which i totally agree) looking at the athlete first... LS doing 1000s for time only really trains him for that pace. And THAT pace he needs to be holding is obv faster. His engine is unreal... folks could only dream of having. IMO he needs to be able to do sets like the above to get into a group that would eventually settle to a usable pace for him.

Anyways, thats my .02

all the best

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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daved wrote:
Such a great perspective to have and thanks for sharing and being so open.

So many coaches could and should read that post a few times.

Pre sydney (for qualifying for and then racing there) we did sets that really helped (at the time) get folks to be in that front group.

They looked something like this:

(post warm up of course)

4 (or eventually) 6 x 50 on short rest interval ( think :40 or :45 sec LCM at altitude at the otc) with the goal of holding around 31 or 32 sec. Anything slower was failure.
Follow up that last 50 with a 200m max swim.

In the spirit of your theory (which i totally agree) looking at the athlete first... LS doing 1000s for time only really trains him for that pace. And THAT pace he needs to be holding is obv faster. His engine is unreal... folks could only dream of having. IMO he needs to be able to do sets like the above to get into a group that would eventually settle to a usable pace for him.

Anyways, thats my .02

all the best

daved

Look at his swims in the Form goggles app. Pretty revealing as to what Lionel is doing swim wise - the 1000s aren't training I don't think - they are just tests to see where he is at. His workouts have nothing like this...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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im not sure i understand your post and have not looked through the goggle app.

my simple point is (and maybe you are saying the same) 1000s for time dont expose him to nor create the ability to go faster than 110s.

And the only way to go faster than 110s per 100 is do 100s (or shorter) at a faster pace.

again, we could be doing the same.

PS on my last post is that we would also switch the format up and do the 200s first and then try to hold much faster pace 50s.. simulating the "feeling" that I think LS was talking about which is that lactate overload that he feels trying to crush the first 200.

ok.. anyways, have a great day all
daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [daved] [ In reply to ]
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The app goes thru all of the workouts he has been doing.

It's basically what you are saying and he's definitely working at paces faster to much faster than 1:12s. The videos only showed the test for his sprint tri over a month ago - then another 1000/500/1000 for time last week.

I think an important part that Lionel came up with was how he can swim the same pace comfortably or very uncomfortably at a large cost. If he can swim slightly faster and make the pack he's made for the last 2 years (I think Daytona was an anomaly to be honest) with less metabolic cost - his bike run will be even stronger and give him a chance.

But in the end - it appears that the swim workouts with the Aquabears are paying off and he is doing the fast work for sure. You can basically go back in the app and look at every swim he's done since Daytona - it's pretty rad actually!

Today might be the day for a fast 200 with 50s after in the pool for me - thanks for the inspiration!

Have a great day!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Sam Long Swim Test [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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I love it! and you are welcome!

have a go.
As I have shared in the feb (and now march) fish thread, I am doing the same.

I have recruited one of the fastest swimmers out here in the boston area to do ONLY speed work with me every thursday.

I shared our set from last week. And we have yet to decide what this thursday is going to be. But even after just one super hard/fast (ish) set from last week, my swim today was exponentially more fun. I had gears back that I had trained away by doing 5 and 6k swims at stupid slow paces. just getting yards in to keep my feel basically as we start to exit both the pandemic shut downs and winter here.

Have a great swim today. Lemme know how it goes.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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