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Re: SRAM Force AXS [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Slowman wrote:
the one area where they are interested in backward compatibility is for your past investments in wheels. but it'll only go back so far, and that distance back is limited to hubs that accept XD drivers. it took pains to ensure that all the wheel companies has a lot of notice, and that its new driver fit on old XD driver-enabled hubs.

The only thing that necessitates the XD-R driver is the 10T cog. And this system would work fine, especially in 1x configuration, without a 10T cog, just as the gravel 1x11 works fine with either the XD driver and a 10-42 cassette or the old-school HG driver and an 11-42 cassette, and 12-speed Eagle works fine with an XD driver and a 10-50 cassette or 11-50 cassette on an HG driver.

It's early, and I'm not gonna criticize SRAM for not having a HG-compatible cassette for this yet. Maybe it comes when the presumed downmarket 1x12 mechanical systems are released in the future, just as it took Apex1 and NX Eagle to usher in the HG compatible cassettes for those systems. If SRAM doesn't go there, somebody in the aftermarket will. I all but guarantee that the folks at Sunrace are already working on a SRAM 12s Road compatible cassette that will fit an HG driver.

If sunrace comes out with a 12s cassette compatible with an 8-9-10 HG cassette body, then I'd be very interested. I still love my tri-spokes, no desire to swap those out anytime soon, but they aren't XD compatible.

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Re: SRAM Force AXS [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
So you can confirm that AXS is only compatible with their Red or Force cranks.

well, no. because there's eagle AXS. so, that means AXS must be compatible with eagle cranks. but i really didn't spend any time educating myself on AXS for offroad. my only eagle interest is in pairing it with the road crank and shifters.

but this does bring up one point: if the eagle chain is required to go with the eagle cassette, and the flat top chain is required to go with the road AXS groups, but the mullet calls for the road crank, that means the eagle chain must be compatible with the road crank, even tho the road chain isn't compatible with the eagle cassette. i'll need to run that down.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ok lemme clarify, AXS is definitely not compatible with non-Sram cranks?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Ok lemme clarify, AXS is definitely not compatible with non-Sram cranks?

exactly. it's the chain rings. i'm working on another theme, another article, right now on "autofeed", and it's a problem brought on, insidiously, by the very efforts we all make to reduce friction in the drivetrain. one way to reduce friction is to have precise keyway relationships between chain and tooth.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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this is exactly what i'm looking for... they currently missed a sale due to not bringing that range; and it seems like quite a few others looking for it as well
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
So you can confirm that AXS is only compatible with their Red or Force cranks.


but this does bring up one point: if the eagle chain is required to go with the eagle cassette, and the flat top chain is required to go with the road AXS groups, but the mullet calls for the road crank, that means the eagle chain must be compatible with the road crank, even tho the road chain isn't compatible with the eagle cassette. i'll need to run that down.

Hi Dan

This is what I want to do - upgrade to the new Sram AXS 1x TT but keep my existing Quarq crankset with a 1x chaining. Given that a number of third party 1x MTB chaining manufacturers (Wolftooth, etc) advertise their chainrings as being 1 x 10/11/12sp compatible, those chainrings are presumably compatible with the Sram Eagle 12sp chains (and others).

Therefore, if the Road AXS chainrings are compatible with the new 12sp Eagle chain, and the Eagle chain is compatible with third-party 1x chainrings, one presumably could use any 1x chainring with the Eagle chain (probably also the flat-top?).

Obvioulsy, SRAM is not telling anyone their chains will work with other 1x chainrings as they want you to buy their new crankset / chainrings too if you upgrade to AXS...

Am I missing something here?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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https://sram.zendesk.com/...AM-Eagle-drivetrain-

so i guess that's not intended/possible
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [jakesdk] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I also found too this which seems to answer the question.
https://sram.zendesk.com/...etrain-gearing-setup-

SRAM RED eTap AXS™ chains are only compatible with SRAM RED eTap AXS™ chainrings. Eagle™ chains are designed only for 1x drivetrains with a 10-50 or 11-50 Eagle™ cassette (note: SRAM RED eTap AXS™ 12-speed chains are designed only to be used with RED eTap AXS™ 12-speed XDR cassettes).

Guess I'll have to buy that sexy AXS 1x aero chainring too...
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Ok lemme clarify, AXS is definitely not compatible with non-Sram cranks?


exactly. it's the chain rings. i'm working on another theme, another article, right now on "autofeed", and it's a problem brought on, insidiously, by the very efforts we all make to reduce friction in the drivetrain. one way to reduce friction is to have precise keyway relationships between chain and tooth.

Restricting the usage to only Sram cranks is a non starter for anyone with a different crank power meter, for example my type s power2max. Does Sram have no plans to release 110 BCD rings?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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SAvan wrote:
Slowman wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
So you can confirm that AXS is only compatible with their Red or Force cranks.


but this does bring up one point: if the eagle chain is required to go with the eagle cassette, and the flat top chain is required to go with the road AXS groups, but the mullet calls for the road crank, that means the eagle chain must be compatible with the road crank, even tho the road chain isn't compatible with the eagle cassette. i'll need to run that down.


Hi Dan

This is what I want to do - upgrade to the new Sram AXS 1x TT but keep my existing Quarq crankset with a 1x chaining. Given that a number of third party 1x MTB chaining manufacturers (Wolftooth, etc) advertise their chainrings as being 1 x 10/11/12sp compatible, those chainrings are presumably compatible with the Sram Eagle 12sp chains (and others).

Therefore, if the Road AXS chainrings are compatible with the new 12sp Eagle chain, and the Eagle chain is compatible with third-party 1x chainrings, one presumably could use any 1x chainring with the Eagle chain (probably also the flat-top?).

Obvioulsy, SRAM is not telling anyone their chains will work with other 1x chainrings as they want you to buy their new crankset / chainrings too if you upgrade to AXS...

Am I missing something here?

i don't know if i'll answer your question with this post, but:

1. for any of your questions, you're asking them on the right day. i'll be seeing a lot of manufacturers today.

2. one good thing with SRAM, if your product is late-model enough to have an 8-bolt attachment between the SRAM crank and whatever you want to put on it - 4-bolt spider, direct mount chain ring, etc., is that this carries over onto AXS.

3. i'm severely, acutely, undercoffeed as i write this. my functional threshold IQ is 70 right now. just, if there's a 110bcd spider with that 8-bolt pattern, you can put on whatever chain ring you want. if your crank w/Quarq PM has an 8-bolt pattern, you can put on whatever chain ring you want. SRAM is fully attached that that 8-bolt system. so, if you pull off your drive side crank arm and look at the back of it, and there's 8 bolts in a circle attaching whatever you have attached to that crank, you're gold.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan, appreciate your taking the time to respond.

I'm still on a 3-bolt Sram/Quarq so out of luck there. From some further digging around on the net, I think I have it worked out (it's quite complicated, I needed plenty of coffee myself!):


  • The Road AXS chain has larger rollers than the Eagle chain.
  • The Road AXS chainrings are designed to engage the larger rollers of the Road AXS chain.
  • But, because the Eagle chain has smaller rollers, it will still fit on the Road AXS chainrings (thus why you can use the Eagle chain in a mullet configuration with AXS chainrings)
  • However, this will not work the other way. Ie. because the Road AXS chain as larger rollers, it is will likely not fit on other (non Road AXS) 1x chainrings that can accept Eagle chains and are designed around smaller rollers. The Road AXS chain *might fit these chain rings, but probably not "optimally" so there may well be wear and chain retention issues if the chain does not "sit" in the teeth fully.
  • In all cases, you must match cassette and chain - Eagle with Eagle, Road AXS with Road AXS.

What I haven't quite worked out is why, technically if one can use an Eagle chain on Road AXS chainrings, you can't also use an Eagle chain with the Road AXS cassette. Sram only says:

"Can I use a SRAM Eagle™ 12-speed chain on an SRAM RED® XG-1290 cassette?
No. Eagle™ chains are only compatible with Eagle™ cassettes."
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

the new AXS system is organic in its approach. there is not, to my knowledge, any 11t 1st position 12sp cogset for a 2x system. correct me if i'm wrong. i think eagle is pretty much it and i don't think you want a 50t inner cog on your 2x system. that leaves you with 12sp cogsets that have a 10t 1st position cog (if it's SRAM).

Rotor released their 12sp which fits on existing hubs: https://rotorbike.com/...__from_store=spanish

11-36, 11-39, 11-46, 11-52
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [COBRI] [ In reply to ]
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COBRI wrote:
this is exactly what i'm looking for... they currently missed a sale due to not bringing that range; and it seems like quite a few others looking for it as well

The aftermarket will make AXS cassettes. Just give it more than 2 seconds. It was just released.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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But the RD is only capable to 33t, so we also need a new RD.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [COBRI] [ In reply to ]
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Shimano says RD-RX805-GS is only good to a 34t cog but I'm using it with an 11-40 cassette just fine and it definitely looks like it would work with an 11-42. Might be different with SRAM but usually you can make things work. It just might not be officially approved.

-Mike

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Re: SRAM Force AXS [cobra_kai] [ In reply to ]
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cobra_kai wrote:
Slowman wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Ok lemme clarify, AXS is definitely not compatible with non-Sram cranks?


exactly. it's the chain rings. i'm working on another theme, another article, right now on "autofeed", and it's a problem brought on, insidiously, by the very efforts we all make to reduce friction in the drivetrain. one way to reduce friction is to have precise keyway relationships between chain and tooth.


Restricting the usage to only Sram cranks is a non starter for anyone with a different crank power meter, for example my type s power2max. Does Sram have no plans to release 110 BCD rings?

I think this move makes business sense for SRAM. Campagnolo and Shimano already had their own standards. When SRAM started, they didn't make full groupsets,so they had to piggyback on one of the existing standards to sell their products. Once they did make their own full groupset, they didn't have the following to get customers to commit to a unique standard, so they soldiered on with Shimano's. Now they are big enough to have their own, so why let customers buy Shimano products for their groupsets? The transition will cause some pain for customers (and by extension SRAM's revenues), but once people make their choice, it's the same as the Shimano/Campy situation, no?
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [COBRI] [ In reply to ]
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COBRI wrote:
But the RD is only capable to 33t, so we also need a new RD.

Or you can add a RoadLink
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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thats a janky set up IMO and decreases the shift accuracy.... defeating the point of a $400 derailleur


BigBoyND wrote:
COBRI wrote:
But the RD is only capable to 33t, so we also need a new RD.


Or you can add a RoadLink
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [COBRI] [ In reply to ]
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Can't have everything, I suppose
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [COBRI] [ In reply to ]
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COBRI wrote:
thats a janky set up IMO and decreases the shift accuracy.... defeating the point of a $400 derailleur


BigBoyND wrote:
COBRI wrote:
But the RD is only capable to 33t, so we also need a new RD.


Or you can add a RoadLink
If the force AXS uses the same parrallelogram design as the other Sram clutched RD's, then it will work exactly like as if Sram spec'd it with a larger rear capacity since the cage essentially only moves horizontally and relies on B-screw being turned in to rotate the RD far enough way to clear the largest cog.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [redlude97] [ In reply to ]
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redlude97 wrote:
If the force AXS uses the same parrallelogram design as the other Sram clutched RD's, then it will work exactly like as if Sram spec'd it with a larger rear capacity since the cage essentially only moves horizontally and relies on B-screw being turned in to rotate the RD far enough way to clear the largest cog.


No X-horizon geometry on the Red or Force AXS eTAP. That's only for 1X-specific RDs. These new RD's aren't "clutched" so much as "damped"

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
redlude97 wrote:

If the force AXS uses the same parrallelogram design as the other Sram clutched RD's, then it will work exactly like as if Sram spec'd it with a larger rear capacity since the cage essentially only moves horizontally and relies on B-screw being turned in to rotate the RD far enough way to clear the largest cog.



No X-horizon geometry on the Red or Force AXS eTAP. That's only for 1X-specific RDs. These new RD's aren't "clutched" so much as "damped"
Ah, got it.
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [XX29er] [ In reply to ]
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Hello XX29er and All,

https://www.velonews.com/...x-drivetrains_493185




The 2X drivetrain had lower frictional losses in every gear than the 1X system—with the caveat that the chainrings matched up with the ideal cogs in the rear.

The average friction within the 1X drivetrain was 12.24 watts. This was computed as the sum of the drivetrain power losses in each of the 11 gears divided by 11. The average friction of the 2X drivetrain was 9.45 watts, computed as the sum of the power losses in each of the 15 optimal gears divided by 15.

This is just under a three-watt average difference between the two drivetrains.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: SRAM Force AXS [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting read. According to the justification of their results though, it would seem that the margin would go down significantly with a larger front chainring. Testing a 48 is useful for XC and road but most tri guys running 1x won't have anything smaller than a 52. And most aren't running a 10 tooth small cog yet as well.

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Re: SRAM Force AXS [ In reply to ]
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And still SRAM is trying to force a small chainring with a 10 tooth cog (â—”_â—”)
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