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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This doesn't hold up I don't think. While Im not on the level of Quintana, I have prepared for many pro racing seasons on the trainer living in the great white north. That includes a lot of time at and above threshold holding 360w or more and generating heat accordingly. I actually found that I would get too fit on the trainer for the upcoming season because it was so targeted and efficient. I could even get some decent speed in my legs with Zwift racing. I would win or podium races like San Dimas early on and lose my edge by Redlands and Gila in April/May. I discovered that I needed outdoor camps down south with more relaxed volume to approach the season on the right trajectory.

That could actually be happening to some riders here. If they were forced to ride the trainer and do a lot of targeted intensity this spring instead of outdoor variety, they could be losing the edge now.

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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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The thermostat in my house is in the hall way. Not my room with the trainer. The hvac argument doesn't work great unless it is summer and you're cooling all day anyway.

Otherwise, the heat stays in the room and takes forever to make its way out of the room and down the hallway to the thermostat to trip it on.

I do NOT turn my hvac on to manual when I ride indoors. I'm at the mercy of what the control system does.

I've run power meter comparison tests indoors using my Wahoo that obviously is a gps with a temperature element. If the home hvac isn't constantly kicking on, I can SEE the temp in the data file creep up in the room over time.

I'll try to find that data file.

Also, I don't buy the fan argument. If you own a wind tunnel you can ride in at home, sure. Otherwise you're hitting 50% of your body at best with suboptimal velocities.

Outdoors is velocity AND volume. Indoors is usually one or the other. My "disaster water fan" is velocity, but only really hits my chest area. My box fan is volume, but a whisper of velocity.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
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carlosflanders wrote:
....If fans can't allow the same evaporative cooling as outside then this is a very relevant concern for pros.
Fans alone may be insufficient depending on ambient conditions, and your requirements. However, in combination with dehumidification and/or AC, and you should be able to cool just fine.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
....I have refrigeration HVAC experience as well, not in homes but in automotive product development, air handling and chamber enclosures.
I have lots of HVAC experience, mostly for pharmaceutical/biologics manufacturing cleanrooms. However my current gig involves qualifying a few hundred pharmaceutical freezers and a few enormous coldrooms. New area for me. I still doubt very much I'll be encountering tons!
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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These are not arguments that the problem isn't solvable. Only that you have chosen not to solve it.

Of course without any method of extraction, heat will accumulate and raise the temperature of the room, and the humidity will rise. But, it is not a complex or expensive problem to remove less than 2kW/h from a room. Any small window unit AC can move that much heat.

Robert does say that its hard to move enough air. Perhaps that's true....he has the meter to prove it with data. But, large high-velocity/high-volume fans also don't cost that much...and several fans can be used to get enough air flow onto a large enough surface area to evaporate enough sweat to be effective.

If I were a professional, and forced to ride inside for 30+ hours a week for months on end, I'd have a big AC in the room, and several large fans blowing on me. As an amateur, I just go outside.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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On the rare day that we have lots of humidity and I have to be on the trainer, I'll just take my setup outside onto my back patio. Set up the laptop on my patio table with a couple of fans, and it's all good.

of course, the fans don't matter that much now if I'm going outside since I've decided to just do easy rides on the trainer for the time being.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 15, 20 10:25
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
On the rare day that we have lots of humidity and I have to be on the trainer, I'll just take my setup outside onto my back patio. Set up the laptop on my patio table with a couple of fans, and it's all good.

Exactly the same....the three days a year that I decide to ride the trainer instead of the road.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This is a very well-thought out post Dev, appreciate the basic math example to illustrate your point too. Perhaps not for pro cyclists, but it's important to note that AC systems are much less common in Europe than in the US, especially in places where it does not get super warm like the UK or at altitude in any mountain region.

I was listening to the podcast while running yesterday and was thinking a lot about this- I have found that I am most fit after doing a block of pretty much exclusively indoor, structured training (case in point being this year with COVID). But that's defining fitness in terms of FTP or sustained, steady state efforts. I set PRs in a half-marathon, 20/40k TT, and up Mount Mitchell from Marion (a 21 mile climb for those unfamiliar, took me 1:40 on the dot). I have struggled a ton with the few race-group rides and crits that I've done the last few months. There's just no way to simulate on the trainer having to repeatedly punch out of corners or surge repeatedly to close down gaps- sure you can do 30-30s or something but we all know that it doesn't feel the same (definitely can't simulate sprinting effectively indoors).

This last point is key for why indoor training works well for long-course triathletes but less so for pro cyclists. Cycling races (aside from TTs) are won by explosive efforts- even long climbs come down to being able to still punch after riding at threshold for 20 mins. You have to be able to create separation, to be able to recover from repeated anaerobic punches, and be able to efficiently put out massive power for a couples mins (we're talking 500W+, as Lance and George mentioned with the winning move for Soran). If you're stuck inside while others are practicing those efforts outside, you're at a major disadvantage.

I think the indoor sessions tie into why we've seen such fast climbing times this year at the tour and other races. Everyone has a really high FTP from doing structured threshold training, and is rested from less travel and racing fatigue. But there's separation when there's an attack or someone like WVA just drilling it on the front and putting everyone into the red- essentially there's less capacity to hold power above threshold or to recover after such efforts. That's just my theory from my experience anyways, feel free to disagree.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
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You can't underestimate the power of convective cooling.

You keep saying convective. However, I'm pretty sure you mean evaporative.

Convection is the exchange of heat by physical movement (eg, airflow).
Evaporation is the exchange of heat through the change of state (eg, water converting from liquid to gas).

Correctly stated, and your intended point:

You can't underestimate the power of evaporative cooling.

A window unit AC system can remove the heat in a room even at the pro rates without much trouble. They also work as a dehumidifier.
There are 3 modes of heat transfer - conduction, radiation, and convection. Humidity actually affects two modes - convection and conduction. The heat transfer coefficient drops with increasing humidity (and increases with air speed) as does the thermal conductivity of moist air.

Evaporative cooling is not a form of heat transfer; it is the end result of forms of heat transfer.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [TruffleShuffle] [ In reply to ]
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TruffleShuffle wrote:
Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.

This is the entire discussion that you can replicate outdoor airflow indoors at super high watts per kilo of heat generation. When an athlete is generating 24Watts per kilo of heat, its not that simple because his insides are cooking faster (compared to an age grouper who may only generate 16W or 12W per kilo), so the outside has to suck away that buildup faster. Some of you are assuming that all these protour guys have access to the same set ups we have and the buildup of heat and humidity can be removed from the room they are training in. I bet most don't have those set ups because they never actually need it. They are on races and training camps outdoors most of the time.

For us age groupers, its literally not a problem at all. Our watts per kilo are just too low (even for big guys....they have the advantage of more surface area to get ride of the joules of heat built up in their body compared to a small pro generating the same joules of buildup).
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
TruffleShuffle wrote:
Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.

This is the entire discussion that you can replicate outdoor airflow indoors at super high watts per kilo of heat generation. When an athlete is generating 24Watts per kilo of heat, its not that simple because his insides are cooking faster (compared to an age grouper who may only generate 16W or 12W per kilo), so the outside has to suck away that buildup faster. Some of you are assuming that all these protour guys have access to the same set ups we have and the buildup of heat and humidity can be removed from the room they are training in. I bet most don't have those set ups because they never actually need it. They are on races and training camps outdoors most of the time.

For us age groupers, its literally not a problem at all. Our watts per kilo are just too low (even for big guys....they have the advantage of more surface area to get ride of the joules of heat built up in their body compared to a small pro generating the same joules of buildup).

They don't have access to a $200 window AC unit and a few fans??

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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
TruffleShuffle wrote:
Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.

This is the entire discussion that you can replicate outdoor airflow indoors at super high watts per kilo of heat generation. When an athlete is generating 24Watts per kilo of heat, its not that simple because his insides are cooking faster (compared to an age grouper who may only generate 16W or 12W per kilo), so the outside has to suck away that buildup faster. Some of you are assuming that all these protour guys have access to the same set ups we have and the buildup of heat and humidity can be removed from the room they are training in. I bet most don't have those set ups because they never actually need it. They are on races and training camps outdoors most of the time.

For us age groupers, its literally not a problem at all. Our watts per kilo are just too low (even for big guys....they have the advantage of more surface area to get ride of the joules of heat built up in their body compared to a small pro generating the same joules of buildup).

They don't have access to a $200 window AC unit and a few fans??

Alex Dowsett had no fan and was getting crushed in zwift tts. He was at altitude though..,

Andorra, which had a really strict lockdown policy.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
TruffleShuffle wrote:
Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.


This is the entire discussion that you can replicate outdoor airflow indoors at super high watts per kilo of heat generation. When an athlete is generating 24Watts per kilo of heat, its not that simple because his insides are cooking faster (compared to an age grouper who may only generate 16W or 12W per kilo), so the outside has to suck away that buildup faster. Some of you are assuming that all these protour guys have access to the same set ups we have and the buildup of heat and humidity can be removed from the room they are training in. I bet most don't have those set ups because they never actually need it. They are on races and training camps outdoors most of the time.

For us age groupers, its literally not a problem at all. Our watts per kilo are just too low (even for big guys....they have the advantage of more surface area to get ride of the joules of heat built up in their body compared to a small pro generating the same joules of buildup).

I'll leave it to the engineers to determine if they can cool off enough. But you are making two completely different arguments here. The first is that they produce too much heat to possibly cool off enough to put in the amount of work necessary to compete at the top level. The second is that they could create an environment that would allow them to cool off enough, but don't because they don't ride indoors enough to make that investment. The 2nd may be true, but it fundamentally contradicts your first argument.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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How about, "Its really hard to cool a protour level cyclist sufficiently for them to get their last few percentage points of fitness....for age group athletes or even pro triathletes, this is a non issue or less of an issue". My original post I put a question mark on the question and gave you guys the back of the envelope math on heat generation for even a small protour cyclists.

It's always possible to cool as they have a ski hill at Emirates Mall in Dubai. Its just a question of how much you need to modify your environment to get enough cooling at a high degree of performance. There is a reason for certain water temperatures for FINA swim racing. If too much heat builds up, performance suffers, and maybe many pros were not able to modify their environments to get enough cooling during lockdown so arrived post lockdown out of race shape.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
How about, "Its really hard to cool a protour level cyclist sufficiently for them to get their last few percentage points of fitness....for age group athletes or even pro triathletes, this is a non issue or less of an issue". My original post I put a question mark on the question and gave you guys the back of the envelope math on heat generation for even a small protour cyclists.

It's always possible to cool as they have a ski hill at Emirates Mall in Dubai. Its just a question of how much you need to modify your environment to get enough cooling at a high degree of performance. There is a reason for certain water temperatures for FINA swim racing. If too much heat builds up, performance suffers, and maybe many pros were not able to modify their environments to get enough cooling during lockdown so arrived post lockdown out of race shape.


The point though is that its NOT hard. The smallest window AC unit will move 3500 watts...that should be good for ~800 watts at the wheel continuous. They draw about 7.5 Amps on a US 115 VAC circuit. $300 USD. Want more buy a bigger AC....you can buy them 3x that big.

24" industrial fans move air at 7500 CFM, or 20 mph / 30 kph in a 24" column. Obviously that falls off with distance from the fan. Get a couple for more air. $200 USD / ea.

AC and 2 fans....For the cost of a smart trainer. Mr. Pickles can tell us the HSS with his fancy meter for that setup.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Sep 15, 20 13:49
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
The thermostat in my house is in the hall way. Not my room with the trainer. The hvac argument doesn't work great unless it is summer and you're cooling all day anyway.

Otherwise, the heat stays in the room and takes forever to make its way out of the room and down the hallway to the thermostat to trip it on.

I do NOT turn my hvac on to manual when I ride indoors. I'm at the mercy of what the control system does.

I've run power meter comparison tests indoors using my Wahoo that obviously is a gps with a temperature element. If the home hvac isn't constantly kicking on, I can SEE the temp in the data file creep up in the room over time.

I'll try to find that data file.

Also, I don't buy the fan argument. If you own a wind tunnel you can ride in at home, sure. Otherwise you're hitting 50% of your body at best with suboptimal velocities.

Outdoors is velocity AND volume. Indoors is usually one or the other. My "disaster water fan" is velocity, but only really hits my chest area. My box fan is volume, but a whisper of velocity.

I mean the proof is in the pudding isn't it though? Im telling you Ive done some of my best numbers on the trainer and some very effective training blocks all at relatively high power relative to average. Maybe the fan doesn't provide perfect cooling but in my case it is adequate for peak performance and I think that would be true for most other professionals doing similar numbers. Maybe a big unit like Kristoff doing intervals at 450-550w would suffer but at 360-420 I do fine for long periods.

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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
The point though is that its NOT hard.

Correct.

I suspect I'd suck even more than usual though if I could only ride the trainer.

1) Lack of momentum messes with the pedal stroke
2) Rigid platform affects muscle engagement as well
3) Extremely boring to ride 30 hrs/week on one of those
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Kinda off topic, but -

I continue to be amazed at how small the fans are that Lionel Sanders and all the other pro Zwift triathletes use when they are zwift racing. I mean, I don't even remember a single one of them using anything bigger than a regular box fan, and it wasn't some powerful one, nor do I remember any one of the using two fans (but I could be wrong about that.)

I always see LS crushing his indoor bike workouts, putting up like 400+watts for intervals, and I always think, "where the F is his battery of fans?! I only see one, and it's a NORMAL one. My Lasko blower is likely more powerful than that!"
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are not a protour rider. You also don't have to train for 500-800 watt surges (and associated heat buildup). It is OK for you to not have the protour race fitness that goes with those massive variations, but for a protour rider, its a difference between staying in the group (race shape) and getting unhitched (still good fitness, maybe local racing fitness or triathlon pro fitness, just not protour race fitness).

I made it clear that the discussion was about pointy end protour race fitness, which is what George, Lance and Andy Schleck were talking about on Wedu TheMove after stage 15 (go to around 15 minutes in and listen in)....Schleck claims it is not possible to get in Tour de France shape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TNj7goukYo. He basically argues that those locked in at home could not get in shape compared to those who could go outdoors and get in race shape during lockdown.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Yes, but you are not a protour rider. You also don't have to train for 500-800 watt surges (and associated heat buildup). It is OK for you to not have the protour race fitness that goes with those massive variations, but for a protour rider, its a difference between staying in the group (race shape) and getting unhitched (still good fitness, maybe local racing fitness or triathlon pro fitness, just not protour race fitness).

I made it clear that the discussion was about pointy end protour race fitness, which is what George, Lance and Andy Schleck were talking about on Wedu TheMove after stage 15 (go to around 15 minutes in and listen in)....Schleck claims it is not possible to get in Tour de France shape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TNj7goukYo. He basically argues that those locked in at home could not get in shape compared to those who could go outdoors and get in race shape during lockdown.

I don't really care to go listen. But, if his claim is due to HEAT load...that's just bad math or poor system design.

Humans...even really good humans just can't make much power. Certainly not when compared to our ability to design mechanical things to move heat. The things I listed above are about the smallest stuff you can buy, and move more heat than any pro-tour rider has ever generated for a hour continuously.

If the argument is the intolerability of riding a trainer for 30 hours a week because IT SUCKS BALLS....well, then I'm on board.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Yes, but you are not a protour rider. You also don't have to train for 500-800 watt surges (and associated heat buildup). It is OK for you to not have the protour race fitness that goes with those massive variations, but for a protour rider, its a difference between staying in the group (race shape) and getting unhitched (still good fitness, maybe local racing fitness or triathlon pro fitness, just not protour race fitness).

I made it clear that the discussion was about pointy end protour race fitness, which is what George, Lance and Andy Schleck were talking about on Wedu TheMove after stage 15 (go to around 15 minutes in and listen in)....Schleck claims it is not possible to get in Tour de France shape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TNj7goukYo. He basically argues that those locked in at home could not get in shape compared to those who could go outdoors and get in race shape during lockdown.


You realize who you're replying to? Yeah, he's not Pro Tour, but he's probably the closest thing to it in this thread as a Conti rider. He's competed directly against guys who are now in the Pro Tour. And he definitely has to train for 500-800W surges. *I* train for those surges, and I'm 3-4 levels down the spectrum from where he is.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [TruffleShuffle] [ In reply to ]
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TruffleShuffle wrote:
Ill blow up that argument right now very easily.

A fan.

A rider outside riding 25 mph with NO wind is getting hit in the face with a 25mph wind. That is the cooling mechanism evaporating the sweat off your body. Let us say he is putting out 300 watts.

The same rider indoors producing the same wattage as one would do with NO wind outside - again 300 watts - but has a fan blowing at 35 mph - is actually getting cooled BETTER than he would be outside.

Lets assume he probably has air conditioning so that fan is blowing 72 degree air over him instead of being outside blowing 80 degree air over him.

So logically speaking - he could train better inside because of better cooling with said fan.


I'm not sure it's that simple. I have a big-ass fan right in my face when I do indoor workouts. A pretty big one (this one). On max speed it sounds like a plane taking off and I have to mute my in-Zwift Discord team radio except when I'm trying to talk to my teammates.

And my clothes still get hugely soggy, and my shoes are drenched by the end. That never happens to me on the road, even in 100F temps. I never accumulate moisture.

I speculate it may take more than one big fan to really match what happens outdoors, maybe 3-4 big industrial air movers covering different angles.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 15, 20 14:34
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:

I'm not sure it's that simple. I have a big-ass fan right in my face when I do indoor workouts. A pretty big one (this one). On max speed it sounds like a plane taking off and I have to mute my in-Zwift Discord team radio except when I'm trying to talk to my teammates.

And my clothes still get hugely soggy, and my shoes are drenched by the end. That never happens to me on the road, even in 100F temps. I never accumulate moisture.

I speculate it may take more than one big fan to really match what happens outdoors, maybe 3-4 big industrial air movers covering different angles.

Same here. The cardiac drift on any indoor workouts is always way more than outdoors in similar temps. Just not practical to have ac and several fans blasting and ruins music/podcast/discord stuff. The swamp ass factor is also huge compared to outdoors.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I have a similar fan...same size, just made by Lasko. It moves 3400 CFM. That's about 15mph in a 20" column.

This one (that I was referencing above) moves 7500 CFM. In a 24" column that's good for 25mph.

https://www.globalindustrial.com/...95Dm22RoCgmEQAvD_BwE

Of course you have to derate those air speeds for distance from the fan.

If my job was to ride a bike and I was stuck on a trainer 6 hours a day....I'd have three 7500 cfm fans aimed for maximum surface contact.
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