Just FYI

"You'd have to be completely out of your mind to consider a Garmin Neo at this time." (at ~18:40 if you don't watch the whole video)

This guy seems pretty credible, though kinda bitter.




Edit: I'm a happy Neo 2 (not T) owner, so far.

One customer with a bad experience and I would have to be out of my mind to buy??? Is there a product anywhere on the planet that doesn’t have at least one customer with a bad experience? Good info to know, but I’ll go with the masses, and dcrainmaker.

Did you watch the video? He's talking about far more than a single bad experience.

He may be wrong. I'm not advocating his position. But he's laying out pretty broad evidence covering a variety of different issues.

First, all I did was post sale info on the 2T. I haven't used it and am not advocating for using it. Second, yeah, I watched the video. One disgruntled customer posting about it on the internet. He may be 100% right. Or not. As I said, good info, and I'm glad you posted it here, but "out of my mind to buy" at this point is internet hyperbole, at least at this point.

Wow. I could only make it half way through. Dude is real bitter. And I’m sure he was a pain in ass to deal with. Not saying he’s wrong (he’s probably right) but he needs relax a little.

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Yeah, I agree. And I think he's really stretching his point about a non replaceable bearing being a "time bomb."

Bearings can last for a decade or more, particularly in clean locations like in a trainer. Just because it's not replaceable doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot without mean time between failure statistics. Which may be low on the 2T, but that's not entirely clear.

No offense to Ray but his “use case” is different than most of us. He’s testing different trainers all the time, so I can’t see him putting the time/miles on a single trainer that we do. While his reviews are the best out there, it lacks any sort of long term perspective (eg; how is the kickr/neo performance after 5-10k miles).

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Obviously....I could be wrong but I thought the Neo was his personal choice of trainer.

Haha... yeah I agree on the time bomb perspective. It’s definitely a reach. With that mindset, you could argue that kickr’s are a time bomb with their noise issue that many have had. When I think of a trainer time bomb, I think of the bloody picture that was posted here a few years ago after a computrainer exploded.

Back to the neo, if the bearing is already bad, I’d be asking what’s different? Why didn’t the neo2 bearing last longer? Just replacing the bearing is a short term solution (I’m assuming the bearings are failing much sooner than they should).

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I believe you are right as I remember reading that . But how much does he actually get to use the Tacx? Is he riding it ~5-7 hours a week for 10-12 months out of the year? Even if he does ride it that much, how much use does that trainer get when the next version comes out 1-1.5 years after the previous version was released? There’s very few people buying a new trainer after every new release. I think most people are expecting to get 3 years minimal (probably more like 5) out of their trainer.

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Folks,

To take this conversation on a bit of a tangent, I'd like your opinion here. Attached is the power profile, as measured by the trainer and recorded on a fenix 6x, for a simple ERG workout executed through Zwift.

I came from a Tacx Vortex, and this graph seems mighty noisy. Would other Neo2T users mind sharing their power-time curves so I can compare?

I thought so too, until I did some digging. The NEO 2 had some flywheel slippage problems that weren't resolvable without a warranty replacement. If you're out of warranty or a second owner, you are out of luck. The 2T bearing issue is one of a host of issues on the 2T. I value longevity in my products and user serviceability and so I bought an original Tacx Neo. These command a high price here because they are known for being robust. The bearings need serviced every year or two, depending on how much you ride on it.

Having had nothing but issue with the Wahoo Kickrs of the last 3 years, including the 2018 version, I realised my time with wahoo was over. It's a LOT of money to be spending on a product that only starts to breakdown after 6 months when you have just gotten used to using it.

One thing I will say: Tacx were a good company before they became Garmin-ized. In our triathlon club a lot of people have the original and they are still going despite being years old - and that's with half the people not even giving it a service of any kind. My friend has had 3 Neo2T units in a row and all have had problems. Throwaway culture is ruining the planet, so invest wisely in what you purchase. A 1 year warranty (or 2 years in Europe) isn't long enough for something of this nature that should last for many years.

FWIW, i have found the opposite to be the case since garmin bought tacx. prior to that transaction, tacx was invisible in the US. no office. not tech support. nothing. at least, nothing that i could find, and i'm in the industry.

garmin has a pretty darned good reputation for responding to customers, and in my experience, they have overlaid that onto tacx. perhaps it's different in europe. but, before the company sale, if you bought a tacx, getting in touch with tacx was a fruitless experience.

as regards the "disposable" nature of products made, while i agree with you in broad strokes, i think it's a stretch to lay that claim onto garmin.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A friend who works for garmin informed me two years ago that things in management were changing for the worse. It is cheaper for them, he said, to provide warranty replacements to users who notice unfixed issued (issues hardware changeout may not even help) and then, after the warranty expires, the user is forced to buy a new garmin.

If you or any friends have a recent garmin watch ( >3 years) ask them to check the rear optical heart rate sensor. Most will be cracked, but the user hasn't noticed. Then it will dawn on them that their optical HR metrics have been way off for a long time, getting worse readings. It's one of the most common recent garmin watch faults. Garmin prefer to swap it out whilst within warranty and then, out of the warranty period, will tell you that it doesn't affect the waterproofing or function of the watch. It does affect the waterproofing.

That is one example. I could mention the new poor design of heart rate chest straps, that are integrated into the strap and break when trying to change the battery - the seal can never be made again properly unless you're a watch repairer. Overall they have transitioned to a company that sees a high rate of defect returns and they expect people to get annoyed eventually and just switch to a newer watch hoping that the issue is fixed. I am not excusing other brands and their faults but garmin operate on this new style cycle of waste-inducing hardware that isn't fit for the modern world.

you're a new user. your first post was to bash garmin. okay. i'm relying on my prior relationship with tacx, and my current relationship with tacx post-garmin-sale. that is, i'm relying on my experience. i know a fair number of people who work at garmin, who i consider personal friends, and i have heard nothing like what your apparent friend apparently told you. and, i'm writing you as someone who has a reputation of coming to wahoo's defense at the expense of garmin. i think you're pissing up a rope trying to get folks here to jump onto your view of garmin. but you're welcome to try. i just wonder what the over/under is on your "friend" who used to work at garmin being "you" who used to work at garmin.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Can you elaborate? never heard of this. I have basically all the Garmin HR straps (from the original plastic ones, to fabric ones, to HRM-Run, HRM-Tri, HRM-dual), and have already swapped batteries on all of them, wasn't even aware that i might have broken something. Just checked my Fenix 3 HR. knock on wood!

Edit, haven't changed battery on the HRM-dual yet. is that the one you are referring to? seems to be the same construction (outwardly) as the HRM fabric version?

The 2T issue is pretty bad though... Lucky enough, my original Neo is still going strong. Especially on the piece where Garmin seemed to have made the decision to not offer support for Neo prior to the Garmin acquisition. I would definitely stay clear of the Neo until Garmin can re-establish their reputation here. That stance is unacceptable (anti-consumer), in my opinion.

And at least in my experience with non-trainer devices, Garmin has had good warranty service. I might have had gripes with their product designs, and their prices for out of warranty replacement had definitely go up (which I am not the happiest about, but many companies don't even offer service out of warranty). So far, they have not left me completely hanging with out of warranty issues yet... Never asked for proof of purchase, just S/N.

Everyone has a "friend" who works at a company where they believe that management is changing for the worse. Even if the friend exists, that doesn't provide any legitimacy to the claim. When I hear you (i.e., Dan) make this statement, when I hear Steve Dodds at Bicycledoctor say that his experience in selling these types of products is that Garmin's customer service is, as a whole (of course, everyone has a story), the best, I put far more stock in those statements than a friend of a disgruntled employee who is upset at the way his employer treated him, and thereafter, proclaims the overall deterioration of management.

Service might be good. But he's right that garmin products have many well known issues that don't get addressed. I've experienced the faulty altimeter and cracked HR glass. The lack of fixes at least suggest that its a business decision to replace them within warranty and forcing out-of-warranty cases to buy new.

No experience with the Neo, but I'm on my 4th Kickr. First two developed a loud squeal. Third rumbled and vibrated. Hopefully, the fourth is the charm.

While the service has been good, it's a pain in the ass to return and I'm pretty tired of doing it.

If the fourth is bad, I'll be getting a refund.

Also, why jump on a new joiner calling out issues that have endless threads about them and are known quantities? Garmin products don't have a reputation for durability even if their service is great. I agree it's a wasteful way to do business even if I continue to buy their products.

For someone who doesn't like their "integrity impugned" when biases show (it's ok we all have them), you could give people the benefit of doubt.

in the 20 years this forum has been around, the rule that prohibits harshing on an industry brand in good standing with your first post has proven its value. i complimented this same new user on his post in the unix/zwift thread. but i generally find it bad form for a user to choose as his intro to the community harshing on a brand. you've been here quite awhile yourself; i don't think this is news to you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's fair. I agree that a complaint isn't a great way to introduce yourself.

I had a 735xt with a cracked optical HR that was out of warranty (3 years after purchase). I called Garmin and was initially told that it was out of warranty, and they would replace it with a refurb for $100. I pushed back and said that after a basic search on the Internet it was obvious that they had an issue with cracking on their optical HR sensors and they ended up sending me the refurb 735 at zero cost.

Sure, there are exceptions to everything. The point stands. Great service, poor quality, wasteful.

Dan - what this user said about Garmin HR straps is unfortunately true.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment